Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't own any hots and....unless something miraculous happens, I probably never will. I keep boids, monitors and geckos... but I have been around venemous snakes in the past.. including C. horridus. I live on the VT/NH border and have seen a few of them around... Not in the last say.. 2 years but a few years ago... I've also encountered one copperhead.. (Thats in 26 years of living here) though I'm not entirely sure whether they're supposed to be in this area or not so it could very well have been an escaped captive.

Anyway, enough of what I've seen.. my question is this.... If bitten by a potentially deadly snake (Without prompty medical treatment or you're far away from such) Would the use of an epi pen help or hinder the venom spread? I know in people with allergic reactions the epi-pen is a stop gap measure until they can reach help but I'm not so sure if it would work like that with a snake since I'm uncertain if the venom is actually causing some kind of allergic reaction when it acts or if the venom is more a series of chemicals that each act on a certain cell type... I probably need to look more into how venom acts within the body and I certainly will. This is just a curious question I had....

Thanks for any replies..
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

Hi:

Congrats on seeing a wild Copperhead up there. I very very seriously doubt that it was an escapee.

I've had allsorts of allergies thoughout my life including one time when my allergist over did the amounts of allergens he injected sending me over the edge into anaphalaxis. I've also had one Timber Rattlesnake bite of moderate severity. I can say with 100% confidence that an allergic reaction to the venom itself would be easy to distingush from the effects of the venom. Most of the lethal effects of the venom is at the cellular level and not noticable unless you start a spontanious bleeding event.

If you carry an Epi-pen you should also carry oral Benedryl to use at the same time to work in synergy with the Epinephrine which is short acting. You should also know the signs & symptoms of an allergic reaction. I carry my "ana-kit" in case of encounters with bees & hornets which is more likely to get you than the rattlesnakes.

I hope this answered your question if not I can try again.

Cheers,

Al

A snake in the grass your not likly to find in NH.

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

You're asking the right kinds of questions...

The normal function of snake venom is in no way similar to an alergic reaction. I assume (but we know what that means) that at best, an epipen would have no effect and at worst it would make things worse by raising the blood pressure and speeding up the movement of the venom.

However, for someone who does have an alergic reaction to the venom (fairly rare) an epipen could indeed save them from dying of shock long before the venom has a chance to do it's thing. Some people keep one with them even though they have no history of venom alergy just in case (if it happens it's too late to run to the pharmacy). I've been thinking about doing this myself...

If you consider it though, make sure you know the signs of shock so you don't use it unnecessarily.

Thank you both for your replies. I was wondering if it (the epi-pen) could, indeed, make the reaction worse rather than better. I've never been bitten and don't plan on being so but I am interested in the effects of venoms in many areas and what new uses it may be put to in the fullness of time and knowledge of the compounds within venoms....I'm of the mind there could be very many valuable medical uses for venoms besides the obvious ones of antivenin. Possibly including new treatments for chronic pain sufferers... seizures etc.

The next question this brings up.. is just how the venom acts on cells... The various types of venom and how they actually act on the cell wall to breach it... Again, mostly just curious but I know many cells have receptors for specific types of chemicals and others can block the uptake of those chemicals or mimic them closely enough to be bound to the cell and therefore be absorbed by a receptor site that was intended for another chemical and hindering the absorption of the proper chemical... but I'm not sure how the venom actually penetrates the defenses of mammalian cells.. Anyone want to have a stab at that one for me? *l* I'm full of lots of questions regarding venom and how it works.. What makes its effects different than a toxin such as curare...or those toxins secreted by frogs and toads... other than the delivery system.

Phobos: I wasn't entirely certain if it would have been wild or not. Like I said, I haven't seen one since that. Around here unfortunately, many people see snakes and automatically fear them no matter how harmless they are to them as long as the snake's space is respected/ A friend of mine and I were hiking along a trail and there sat the copperhead in the center of it.. gorgeous animal... I fell in love but knew better than to touch it or approach it.. We waited until he decided to go on his way before continueing our hike. Now that I think about it.. I saw C. horridus on that same trail.. probably a mile further into the woods though different days.. He was sunning on the rocks.. completely unphased by my presence..I think I watched him bask for the better part of an hour before he just slithered off and disappeared into the bush...

One question...

In that picture.. is that B.nasicornis or B. gabonica? I have always.. always wanted one of them.. but I doubt very much I have the reflexes needed to really own hots. Arthritis and Fibromyalgia do not good reflexes nurture *L*

I've also seen one other picture you have..of a Bitis I think.. with the really red coloring to it...is that an Ituri Rhino Viper. It looks very similar to one I saw on a page a few days ago.. though I do know color variance is very high in most Bitis species.

Thanks Again
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

Hi:

Whether or not it complicates the bite or not I can't really say. I do know from experience you get a very natural adrenelin rush when your bitten, which is not good but it's an autonomic response to the bite.

That snake is a Bitis rhinoceros (West African) Gaboon. They have been elevated to be a species themselves. Bitis gaboonica is the East African Gaboon, the nominate species.

I currently keep 5 species of Bitis it's hard to say which one you are refering to but I do have a River Jack (nasicornis)that has awesome blues, reds & yellows.

0.1 B. rhinoceros
0.1 B. arietans
0.1 B. nasicornis
1.1 B. cauldalis
1.1 B. cornuta

Cheers,

Al

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

Thanks for the answer. You have some magnificent animals... I think the snake I'm referring to someone once referred to as the "Christmas" gaboon for its reds and greens that were rather intense. I can't find the picture in the backlog of the forum again or I'd refer you to the thread. Then again I may be mixing you up with someone else.. If I am I sincerely apologize. The title of the picture was simply Bitis. I do remember that much about it... *l* I loved that animal when I saw it... I really do admire those of you who can keep these animals with safety and security of both you and the people in mind. But, I know my limits and will continue to admire the snakes from afar and the people for themselves.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"