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(History of) Wide banded Eastern Kings from coastal areas & goinis . . . .

BlueKing Aug 28, 2005 08:25 PM

Thought I would share some trends I've noticed about Eastern Kings that may be worth discussing since there ARE notable differences in pattern. Through 20 plus years of collecting I have noticed that COASTAL Eastern Kings found from North Carolina to the extreme North Eastern tip of Florida have much wider bands than their inland counterparts. Some of the real wide banded individuals also display partial mosaic traits. BUT: It is also interesting to note that I have found (very few) E. kings with real thin bands as close as 5 miles from the coastal areas (so you don't have to head all the way to the mountains or New Jersey to find thin bands,lol). But generally speaking, if you want wide bands, head for the coastal marshes and you'll always find some; Which brings me to an important topic:
There are actually a couple of INLAND areas that has E. Kings with fairly wide bands: Extreme S. Central GA. and an area near the Appalachicola NF. Why is this? I think it's because many years ago we had a higher water level in the ocean. A deeper ocean could have influenced S. central E. Kings to have bands like their eastern coastal cousins, because they were then near coastal areas many thousands of years ago (when goinis where stranded on that giant island called ANF - which could be more proof that goinis WHERE isolated by an ocean). What I am saying is that a part of S.central GA. was also once close to the ocean (especially the area called Okeefenokee swamp and adjacent areas). What do you all think?
Here is a pic of one of those COASTAL wide banded eastern: A male Eastern found in the coastal marshes of the South East.
Thanks for reading/and your thoughts

Zee

Replies (14)

Keith Hillson Aug 29, 2005 11:54 AM

Interesting theory Zee. Thats what has always fascinated me about Eastern Kings is their variability due to intergrationa and a huge range.

Keith
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BlueKing Aug 29, 2005 04:48 PM

And what has fascinated me even more about the Eastern King is your website!!! All those pics! So many variations - it's incredible - REALLY! How can anyone go to the site without at least thinking about getting an eastern (after seeing all those beautiful pics).
(Here's One of the VERY FEW thin banded individuals in my collection

Zee

Tony D Aug 29, 2005 12:35 PM

IMHO its doubtless that advancing and receeding oceans play a part.

Given however that oceans have been advancing for quite some time I think its been some time since "goini" were isolated by oceans. If memory serve from Bartlets book, which is my only real source of info on goini, isn't the current introduction of easterns into goini population the result of human activity, ie draining wetlands and the like? If this is the case the isolation that led to goini is relatively recent advances, at least in geologic terms. In the end we may have done them a favor. As oceans continue to rise an isolated goini population would have eventually disapeared into the gulf. As is, the genetics that led to the rise of goini have had an oppertunity to migrate out of their confined ever more flooded area. In any case an interesting and fun discussion worthy of several beers! Cheers for the best post on the topic in some time!

BlueKing Aug 29, 2005 04:42 PM

Yes, what IF the ANF suddenly (ok about 2-4 years time) disappeared due to higher water levels . . . And we, the breeders were the only ones left with goinis . . . Interesting . . .
TONY: Are you going to be in Raleigh this weekend ?

Zee

Tony D Aug 30, 2005 05:26 AM

No I pretty much sold out of everything that was ready to place while in Daytona. All I have left is a newly hatched clutch of red bulls, a few dream corns and some hypo coastal plains milk. All need some meals before I can move them in good concience.

BlueKing Aug 30, 2005 04:29 PM

Thanks, Tony. Might have to get one/two of those red bulls from you one day!

Zee

foxturtle Aug 29, 2005 01:36 PM

Not just with eastern kings, but other getula phenotypes, like high-yellow Florida kings, are habitat related "morphs".

BlueKing Aug 29, 2005 04:37 PM

I always knew that when it comes to differences between montane and lowland species, but I didn't think the difference was as close as only a few miles from the ocean like it is in the E. King populations

Zee

Phil Peak Aug 29, 2005 01:52 PM

Great post Zee. I wish I had something to offer as to insights but I have no experience with kings on the coastal plains other than looking at the available pics that document what has been found in those areas. If indeed natural selection has favored wide banded specimens to succeed in those places I would be interested in hearing opinions on why this is from those of you more familiar with the snakes and the habitats. Thats quite a nice looking king in the pic too. Phil

BlueKing Aug 29, 2005 04:33 PM

By the way: Thanks Phil.
I looked at a lot of the pics on the Eastern Kingsnake resource site and also noted a similar trend with coastal counties (of four different states) having more wide banded individuals than almost all of the inland counties. . .I guess I can give credit to EVERYONE who submitted pics and KEITH Hillson who put together the Eastern King resource site. There is a WEALTH of info on that site (when it comes to geographical dimorphism) because they say: A pic is worth a thousand words! And pics are always faster to read than words, LOL!!!

Zee

Phil Peak Aug 29, 2005 09:21 PM

Keith has a great site for sure and I have went over the locality pics many a time.

btw, that is one sweet king. What locality, Ga? Thanks, Phil

BlueKing Aug 30, 2005 04:26 PM

Thanks Phil. This one is a 50", 03' male I got from Kevin Enge as a 17" hatchling. He's growin' like a weed!!!

Zee

BlueKing Aug 30, 2005 04:27 PM

N/m

Hotshot Aug 29, 2005 06:55 PM

I enjoyed reading it.....
Brian
BIOGEOGRAPHY AND PATTERN VARIATION OF KINGSNAKES, LAMPROPELTIS GETULA, IN THE APALACHICOLA REGION

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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

RACERS
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer "Nightcrawler" (MO locale)

KINGS
1.1 California king snake "Bandit" & "Moonstar" (Coastal phase)
1.1 Prairie king snakes "Bishop" & "Askani" (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake "Domino" (KY locale)
1.1 Desert Kingsnakes "Gambit" & "Psylocke"
0.1 Florida Kingsnake "Shard"

MILKS
1.0 Eastern/red Milk intergrade "Cable" (KY locale)
1.0 Eastern/Red Milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)

BULLS/GOPHERS/PINES
0.1 Sonoran Gopher "Husk"

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

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