Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all...

I know that there is very little info on this, seeing as it's going to be different for all persons, all snakes, all bites, on any given day. But...

If a person was to be bitten by Snake X, how long, at a guess, would that person have to get to a hospital and receive treatment before symptom Y happens?

For those of you who have been reading along, you would know i'm getting at Australian species here (specifically Pseudechis porphyriacus and P. colletti). But, all tales are welcomed.

Thanks,
Aaron.
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Happy Herping

Aaron: There are too many variables that affect the severity of the bite to answer your questions. Among them are: The amount of venom injected, the age, weight & physical condition of the victim, the specific location of the bite itself. There are many more, but those three are probably the most important.

Bottom line: If you are bitten by a snake that has the potential to deliver a lethal bite, you would be well advised to treat it as such by getting treatment at a hospital as quickly as is possible.

~~Greg~~

Greg,

I wasn't really after definitive answers. Too many variables. I guess i was just looking for something along the lines of, "Well, when I was bitten..." just for my own interest.

Aaron.

With all the variables Greg mentioned, only one thing is certain. if you don't get treatment quickly, all you will have time to do is to bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well a number of years ago I was bit by a baby eyelash viper while in Florda helping a friend move some from point A to point B. Now mind you I was no greenhorn, but I made the cardinal sin of "losing focus", i.e. I got distracted by something, I dont remember what, and it got up the hook and hit me, just a quick hit and only one fang penetrated, was on the side of my right middle finger, I put the little bastard down in his new home and squeezed out a couple of small drops of blood, told my friend, and then we waited for a few to see what happened, was not much, like a bad hornet sting, swelling to the knuckle, after about 30 then down that night, by next day was a bit red and sore and some bruising, 3 days post, just light bruising and then the first couple layes of skin sloughed off and that was that.......still got my heart rate up.

Hi Mate:

Here's what your looking for but first a comment of your local critters. Regardless of the situation if your tagged but one of your local snakes you need to apply a pressure bandage and seek medical aid at once. As Frank & Greg already said,there are so many variable you can't predict the outcome. Better to play it safe than dead.

Long Story summerized:

1) In 1974 I was bitten by a captive Timber Rattlesnake C. horridus)on the left index finger by a single fang. The pain was instant and intense, no question I was envenomated. 30 mins later I was at the hospital, my hand was swollen by this time and felt like it was on fire. I did not receive A/V at hospital "A" because the Doc was a JackAss. I laid in the ICU bed for 48 hrs, in pain and only 20K circulating platelets (Horridus bite well know for producing Thromobcytepenia). I was transfer to hospital "B" where they knew how to treat snakebites (responsible for a major Zoo) I received 6 units of Wyeth A/V and in just a few hours I was circulating enough platelets to be out of danger. Got serum sickness but made a complete recovery.

2) This past January I was forcefeeding a young (cb04) Cryptelytrops(Trimeresurus) purpureomaculatus that was not eating. Everything was proceeding normally when after the pinky was in her upper throat "death rolled" slipping from my grip sinking a fang in my end of my finger. After a bit of swearing at the little monster I was able to squeeze a single drop of blood from the finger tip and put the beasty back in her cage. I was at bite plus 2 mins and no pain like I was expecting from my previous experience,matter of fact it felt like I stuck my finger with a rose thorn. Plus 5 min, 10 min....nothing. 30 minutes nothing..at this point I felt that I may have a "drybite" because she expended her venom stores on the pinky and my grip effectively "Milked" her into it. The next day the whole incident was just like a bad dream, no evidence I was bit.

Not everyone who has been tagged will share the details because it's embarrassing, which it is to some extent. I do as it's important to share with others so they don't make the same sort of mistakes and learn from yours. The Horridus bite was avoidable by not handling the snake and rushing the pinning process. The Cryptelytrops bite, I'm still thinking about a way to avoid the same scenario and have has conversations with people I look to for guidence. It's just one of the problems that increases you risk with snakes under your care. One thing I do now if I have to "vet" or forcefeed animal is I get them to bite into a wet sponge and expend much of their venom before I undertake the proceedure.

Good Luck,

Al
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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

Thanks Al.

Preforcefeeding and Prevetting milking? Would you consider it necessary in all situations??? I'm not sure about how that works with aussie elapids (as far as venom production rates, expulsion of all venom, etc - danger involved in milking v danger involved in feeding?). Thanks - I'll check it out.

I guess for a 'newbie' or possibly all keepers, that, if bitten, whether confirmed envenomation or not, a trip to the hospital might be in order? I mean, with some bites, is can be hours before symptoms start to show (so i'd wanna be sitting right there in the waiting room when they happen!!)

Thanks for sharing - i wouldn't consider it embarrassing, but rather, a chance to allow others to learn from mistakes made, as opposed to making them for one's self. Some good must come of it!
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Happy Herping

Hi:

Well, for vetting It's something I prefer not to do but for the forcefeeding I think it's a reasonable precaution. Normally for "vetting" I would Tube* them which is the safest way to do most proceedures but forcefeeding whole food animals ( pinkys, fuzzes etc..)by forcepts is my method of choice. I've tried emulsified food by cannula but this is not only dangerious for you but to the animal too, two examples:

I punctured the gut of a neonate Death Adder by accident filling it's abdomen with baby food. I had to put the animal down as not to left it suffer a prolonged death. You can also introduce a cannula into the snakes windpipe during the struggle and fill their lungs with food, again not good for keeping the snake alive. Since this accident I've stayed away from this method. I would rather put myself at a higher risk than the animal. These risks are part of keeping venomous animals. It's not that anyone enjoys doing this, I don't but it's part of being the caretaker of these animals. No one wants to sit around and watch their snake starve to death.

I excersized my 30 year experience with these animals and not to go the hospital. If I had even the slightest symptom I would go right away. That species venom mostly causes local problems and not systemic effects like your fauna. Also that it was only a less than 10 gram snake factored in too. If my Banded Krait bit me, I would not waste anytime appying a pressure bandage and calling 911. Elapid bites are not to be second guessed. Better to chill out in the emergency room for a while than chilling in the morgue.

*See info on safe vetting methods BY WELL REPECTED Pro. (buy the download, $$ well spent, goes to a good cause too)

Cheers!

Al
Handling Venomous Snakes Safely

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

All things being equal,
Using proper first aid
ie compression bandage and limb immoblisation, the patient should have more time, than if no first aid were applied.
But of course medical attention must be sort ASAP.

... i think i remember someone telling me (or reading somewhere) that, if the bite is on the arm or leg (thereby easy to provide first aid to) and a pressure bandage and splint are applied appropriately, the venom of elapids is virtually stopped from moving in the lymphatic system. Is this right (not that it would be wise to apply a pressure bandage, splint, and finish watching the Simpsons before getting to hospital)?

Though, pressure bandages are known to do more harm than good for bites from certain species (as is squeezing blood out of fangholes, i think).
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Happy Herping

Yes, RBC that's perfect and in a nutshell.

Dr. Sean Bush, Loma Linda University Hospital and Venom ER Physician presented a paper on pressure banadages in Rattlesnake bites. He more of less concludes it work even for Viper/ Pit Viper bites to buy time to get to Hospital if your out in the wilderness but at the expense of the local effects on the limb. See reference summary below.

For Elapid bites it's meant to retard the lymphatic return from the effected limb, slowing the dissemination of the venom.
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Pressure immobilization delays mortality and increases intracompartmental pressure after artificial intramuscular rattlesnake envenomation in a porcine model.

Bush SP, Green SM, Laack TA, Hayes WK, Cardwell MD, Tanen DA.

Department of Emergency Medicine (Laack), Loma Linda University School of Medicine, Medical Center and Children's Hospital, Loma Linda, CA, USA.

STUDY OBJECTIVES: We determine the effect of pressure immobilization on mortality and intracompartmental pressure after artificial intramuscular Crotalus atrox envenomation in a porcine model. METHODS: We prospectively studied 20 pigs using a randomized, controlled design. After anesthesia, C atrox venom (20 mg/kg) was injected with a 22-gauge needle 10 mm deep into the tibialis anterior muscle of the hind leg. Pigs were randomized to receive either pressure immobilization (applied 1 minute after envenomation and maintained throughout the duration of the experiment) or no pressure immobilization. We measured time to death, intracompartmental pressure before venom injection and at 2 hours after injection, and leg circumference at a standardized location before injection and immediately postmortem. Duration of survival was compared using Kaplan-Meier survival analysis. RESULTS: The dose of venom resulted in 100% mortality. The median survival was longer in the pressure immobilization group (191 minutes, range 140 to 240 minutes) than in the control group (median 155 minutes, range 119 to 187 minutes). The difference between the groups was 36 minutes (95% confidence interval [CI] 2 to 64 minutes; P =.0122). The mean intracompartmental pressures were 67+/-13 mm Hg+/-SD with pressure immobilization and 24+/-5 mm Hg without pressure immobilization. The difference between groups was 43 mm Hg (95% CI 32 to 53 mm Hg). The mean circumferences were 14.3 cm in the pressure immobilization group and 19.1 cm in the control group. The difference between groups was -4.8 cm (95% CI -5.7 to -3.9 cm). CONCLUSION: Compared with control animals without treatment, the pressure immobilization group had longer survival, less swelling, and higher intracompartmental pressures after artificial, intramuscular C atrox envenomation in our porcine model.

Cheers!

Al
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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.