Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off this forum has been arguing over what a "real" Goini is yet no one has taken the time to do scale counts or whatever to snakes sitting in their own houses. We can't even agree what a freakin Goini truly is but I should pull this info up on here as far as the history of this snake so people can pick it apart? In the format that is becoming common on here I will say this
1. The few that were produced this year are spoken for. So this is no marketing ploy
2. The price was low for a new morph of any type anyway, It's not going to be anything more than a fun project with a lot of variation
3. This did not appear over night, the project took years to get where it is now due to tragedies like escapes and deaths.
4. Seeing it has been proven accusations from trouble makers can basically ruin the fun, profit and even credibility of the breeder I will post the info when I feel like
Furthermore some people I consider friends have already read the history. Some are fine with it others will question it. I will post it when I feel like posting it, as I want to talk about this with Chip one final time before I do. I see problems ahead since no one can do anything but pick on these Goini in general, and not even make up their minds what it is, and makes it what it is supposed to be. Am I the only the one that sees this??? The few that have been aware of this snake are just happy that is something new to mess around with. I was up late, and just rolled out of bed at 11. I have tons of work to do and I don't feel like doing it with a migraine. So everyone will have to wait. In closing I will say the crosses I have seen blow these away in color, but they look very different. Looking at my 04 snake you should see this is a white and yellow snake. No crazy silver or outrageous red and lavender like many man mades I have seen. At least tell me if you notice that. Like I said, look at the picture for more than a minute. Tom Stevens

No you're not the only one who noticed the trend. Personally if I were you I'd keep the info to myself. Anything you do or say here will just be picked apart.

IMHO several people here are becoming like a good looking girlfriend. High maintenance - without the bennefits.

Tom,

justinian2120 posted this not too long ago about scale counts:

again,this is a theory,not initially proposed by me;rememeber,i have not done field work regarding goinis...another theory is that the range of goini was once isolated from the mainland by salt water,not just a fresh water river....and now that is not the case and so are getting inundated with the mainland forms' genetics(i.e. g.getula)....and i'm sorry but off the top of my hea i can't remember where i have read these hypotheses.....btw 'keying it out' means using a key to use,yes,meristics/variations in scalation more than anything as a process of elimination,to ultimately id a specimen....and florida kings have 23 dorsal scale rows;chain and goinis have 21.....fla ventrals=210 to 221;chain kings ventrals=200to223....fla subcaudals=44 to 58;chain kings subcaudals=37to57....the ventrals and subcaudals of goinis are 216 and 53,respectively,falling easily into the count range of both floridana and getula....in other words yes floridana can easily be distinguished from g. getula with scale counts,but goini cannot....these counts were taken from markel's book.

Here's the link to his post:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=880351,880498

Like I said before, I'm going to get scale counts from my animals and post them on here. Not sure when I'll get around to it but I plan on doing so soon.

After talking to several people about this, I'm not so sure scale counts on Kingsnakes found in Florida is going to prove anything as the numbers aren't exact. Instead their is a range that overlap amongst all three populations...Florida, Eastern, and Apalachicola. From my understanding this is why pattern, band count, band width, etc. are used to describe and differentiate the different subspecies.

Sean, you just said
After talking to several people about this, I'm not so sure scale counts on Kingsnakes found in Florida is going to prove anything as the numbers aren't exact. Instead their is a range that overlap amongst all three populations...Florida, Eastern, and Apalachicola. From my understanding this is why pattern, band count, band width, etc. are used to describe and differentiate the different subspecies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please PLEASE keep this attitude after I reveal the history. Also remember that things in Hypo, Axanthic or Amel forms can have at least a little bit of a different appearance. I am hoping everyone sees my point about how difficult this snake is too simply have the facts straight...when after all we can not even agree what a true Goini is....and it is not only us,,,,,but people who have been studying them for years. If even scale counts will not be accepted as proof, then what will be? Thanks
Tom Stevens

If even scale counts will not be accepted as proof, then what will be?

It must pass the good ole' "stand up locaity guy" test. In other words if they don't know or have reason to trust those involved in the lineage, the safe assumption will be that they ain't pure even if they can't articulate what that means. It's a very conservative approach that nobody and everybody can agree on.

Tom

You seem like a nice enough guy but the games need to stop. Nobody has ripped you or the snake at all yet you act that has happened. You cant be defensive until attacked its just silly to be that way. As far as the history dont play games you have whined that you are tired yet you have like 6 posts and some with pics and yet you are too tired to post the history lol. This is starting to reek of publicity you post pics seemingly looking for negative as well as positive comments for what reason ? As far as scale counts thats useless to do with snakes in your house escpecially CB animals. Scale counts are good for WC and wild snakes in the field but with CB animals its senseless like Tony D and FR say once its out of the wild its for all purposes dead to nature, its not representative. So please drop the scale count mantra I beg you. If you wanna act like you have some secret info to lord over and that gives you jollies then go ahead and play your marketing games. You and Rainer are known for doing this i.e. Rainers or yours top secret project you two mention to get people going ??? Its just silly.

Keith

>>First off this forum has been arguing over what a "real" Goini is yet no one has taken the time to do scale counts or whatever to snakes sitting in their own houses. We can't even agree what a freakin Goini truly is but I should pull this info up on here as far as the history of this snake so people can pick it apart? In the format that is becoming common on here I will say this
>>1. The few that were produced this year are spoken for. So this is no marketing ploy
>>2. The price was low for a new morph of any type anyway, It's not going to be anything more than a fun project with a lot of variation
>>3. This did not appear over night, the project took years to get where it is now due to tragedies like escapes and deaths.
>>4. Seeing it has been proven accusations from trouble makers can basically ruin the fun, profit and even credibility of the breeder I will post the info when I feel like
>>Furthermore some people I consider friends have already read the history. Some are fine with it others will question it. I will post it when I feel like posting it, as I want to talk about this with Chip one final time before I do. I see problems ahead since no one can do anything but pick on these Goini in general, and not even make up their minds what it is, and makes it what it is supposed to be. Am I the only the one that sees this??? The few that have been aware of this snake are just happy that is something new to mess around with. I was up late, and just rolled out of bed at 11. I have tons of work to do and I don't feel like doing it with a migraine. So everyone will have to wait. In closing I will say the crosses I have seen blow these away in color, but they look very different. Looking at my 04 snake you should see this is a white and yellow snake. No crazy silver or outrageous red and lavender like many man mades I have seen. At least tell me if you notice that. Like I said, look at the picture for more than a minute. Tom Stevens
>>
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Some people own wild caughts,,,,,so why is the count irrelevant now? It is the same snake in someone house as it was in the wild. Games? Marketing? For what....next year? And my "secrets" are too keep this fun Keith. I always like to see something new, and it is even cooler when it is unexpected. This is not a snake I have anything to do with other than I know the guy who finally got the project off the ground, and that the stock came from a good friend of his who collected it. Keep in mind exactly what type of snake this is and where it "may" have came from, you may have a clue to why it is a touchy subject. Think back to when I posted a Goini that resembled an Eastern. It is from the same bloodline, and though most of it's sibs were classic blotched and I explained where it came from people scoffed at me like I don't know what I am talking about. I am too damn busy to post about something that is important to me...to come back online and see 100 posts of people arguing....which means I have to read every single post and and defend it. When I do have the time I will. So until then find something else to do. You and Sean are giving me the impression that now since you two have seen the pics it is time to discuss this. I would like to give others a chance to be involved too. And yes, I expect you guys to be a large part of the discussion and whatever you say will be considered but I know what I know and anyone else who thinks they are smart enough to erase the credibility of a snake or breeder by looking at 2 pics is mistaken. Tom Stevens

I honestly do not see the big deal with Toms claim that this snake came from a W/C subject!!! Where do you guys think the first albino corn came from??? The first albino cal king??? The first albino emory??? The first albino caligaster??? Do you guys see what Im getting at??? I have seen some really nice wild snakes right here in KY. Hypo calligaster, melanistic hogs, I mean so black and no pattern that I first thought they were black racers!! I have pics of them!! What about Will Birds "Calico cow sucker"???? It came from a W/C snake for crying out loud!!! And you guys can try and pick that one apart too if you want, but Ill tell you this much, I know that Wills snake is for real. Not any man made eye candy, a morph that Mother Nature created and was luckily found for us to enjoy!!!! I have seen it and its offspring!! So why cant this snake be the same??? So get off his jock strap already and do something creative instead of beating someone down!! Is it because you are too jealous to see the real beauty in something like this?? Or just too darned narrow minded to actually give the guy praise and wait for the outcome??? So come on guys, we are supposed to be a community, we have enough opposition from the rest of the world without attacking each other.

So in the mean time here is a link to Wills site, check out his calico cow sucker and his lemons. They are a sight to behold for sure!!!!!
Brian

>>First off this forum has been arguing over what a "real" Goini is yet no one has taken the time to do scale counts or whatever to snakes sitting in their own houses. We can't even agree what a freakin Goini truly is but I should pull this info up on here as far as the history of this snake so people can pick it apart? In the format that is becoming common on here I will say this
>>1. The few that were produced this year are spoken for. So this is no marketing ploy
>>2. The price was low for a new morph of any type anyway, It's not going to be anything more than a fun project with a lot of variation
>>3. This did not appear over night, the project took years to get where it is now due to tragedies like escapes and deaths.
>>4. Seeing it has been proven accusations from trouble makers can basically ruin the fun, profit and even credibility of the breeder I will post the info when I feel like
>>Furthermore some people I consider friends have already read the history. Some are fine with it others will question it. I will post it when I feel like posting it, as I want to talk about this with Chip one final time before I do. I see problems ahead since no one can do anything but pick on these Goini in general, and not even make up their minds what it is, and makes it what it is supposed to be. Am I the only the one that sees this??? The few that have been aware of this snake are just happy that is something new to mess around with. I was up late, and just rolled out of bed at 11. I have tons of work to do and I don't feel like doing it with a migraine. So everyone will have to wait. In closing I will say the crosses I have seen blow these away in color, but they look very different. Looking at my 04 snake you should see this is a white and yellow snake. No crazy silver or outrageous red and lavender like many man mades I have seen. At least tell me if you notice that. Like I said, look at the picture for more than a minute. Tom Stevens
>>

Will Birds site - take a look at it!

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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Hello Brian. I agree everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt and perhaps Tom does indeed have evidence to prove his snake is what he claims. I have always had a favorable impression of Tom and I think he deserves the opportunity to make his case.

I also agree that some pretty crazy things are found in nature and I have seen a few myself. Hypo calligaster, two headed painted turtles and an albino snapping turtle to name a few. One of the differences between these species and cow snakes as well is these are ABUNDANT animals. The chances of coming across an anomaly is exponentially greater with these examples than finding one amid a population of snakes like the ANF kings that are rare to say the least. These snakes are hard to come by in nature. Now this doesn't mean it couldn't happen but you can hopefully see my point.

In addition it is well documented that in the past locality labels have been affixed to captive bred snakes that did not originate from the named locality but rather had characteristics similar in the eyes of the breeder and thus were christined with the locality name despite not being so. Look what abominations have taken place in the industry in the name of Okeetee corn. First and foremost Okeetee was a locality not a type. Anyhow, just something to consider.

btw, two more horridus in the field yesterday Phil

You know there's been a lot of talk about someones credibility in the hobby. Since I feel a little backed into a corner I will say as far as I am aware I myself am known as a stand up guy. I worked hard to get where I am and happen to like where I am in the hobby now. I appreciate being given any slack on this...as it is a touchy subject and my posting the pic was a beginning to an official introduction. 2 guys wanna jump on my case immediately? I should start another post along the lines of let's hear who knows the history of any of the given popular morphs and why was it so easy to believe their story? I have not even told mine yet and suddenly the jokes are flying. Such silliness....but I totally expected it so I can only get so mad. Tom Stevens

Tom,
Don't let this become personal. Phil nailed it on the head with his post. There will be people who believe it and people who don't but noone is accusing you of being a liar. To be honest, I would believe the story more if you had been the one to find the WC adults. I don't know you personally but I've read your posts for a few years and you seem like an upstanding guy.
For me personally, it's difficult to completely believe the word of an anonymous person who I know nothing about in a hobby that is so infested with scam artists. If you know and trust this person than that's all that matters. As others have mentioned, it's a leap of faith. There are plenty of people I trust enough to do that but it's hard to trust someone you don't know.
Your frustration should really be aimed at the people who misrepresent crosses every day at shows and on the classifieds here. Their actions fuel the skepticism of new morphs that pop up from time to time.
You've taken on this project but you didn't originate the line so any doubt is not based on your credibility.

I know wierd stuff sometimes pops up out of nowhere....look at this BT cribo I hatched out last year in a clutch with 23 siblings that were completely normal....
Chris

I understand the point you guys are making. I also realize if I was documented by discovery channel from moment one a few on here would still think of some way to try and prove it was fixed. People wonder why I keep my double het projects to myself? It is cool too look towards the horizon of new morphs and combos to people that like these snakes and things like this snake do not pop up every day unexpectedly. Anyhow that Cribo is killer. I am not worried about this project. It will have plenty of interest. Are you going to the Houston Expo? I may show up on Sunday Tom Stevens

Hey Phil
Glad to hear you guys are still finding stuff!! Im gonna get out once the weather breaks some.

The odds of finding an anomaly like an albino ANF is pretty high, but if one were in the right place at the right time, that is awesome. I understand that herpers want to make sure that such an animal is undeniably 100% pure, and not some inbred mutt. There are some very unscrupulous people out there, and in the end the truth will always come out.

Once Tom provides the details and data for this snakes lineage, and it proves accurate, there will still be non-believers. Thats just the nature of the beast.

So Tom, if what you say is true, then lay it on the table and you should be able to ignore those persons that still do not believe you. Atleast YOU will know its true. Thats just the way I am. I dont lie, and if I tell you something and you dont believe me, so be it.
Brian
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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I will Brian, I haven't heard from the guy yet and I can already tell you two things though. I will remove the collectors name from the history....and it is no one any of us will be familiar with anyways....as he is not someone with a "name" in the hobby. And also the original Amel was not found....a gravid female was collected, eggs were laid and hatched. One Amel was in the clutch, but the mother was already sold off. Such a commotion over this....have you seen the crosses? They have outrageous coloration like many hybrids do. I would love to see someone post some of those actually. Regardless, I will post the history when I feel like it. Which will be after I speak once more with the guy who produced the ones from 05.I am waiting for people to talk about the shape of the snakes head, or where the head meets the neck etc....instead it is just the typical nonsense that trouble makers start on here. The fact they seem to think I did not realize this was gonna happen is funnier than that ridiculous pic that was posted by Sean. Even funnier the moderators are OK with it. I do not mean to leave people hanging, but as I have mentioned for now I have no time to respond to dozens of posts....as people can not wait to give me a hard time. Since it will not be a name like Bill Love or someone involved the weenies will say it isn't this n that. Whatever Tom Stevens

Yeah Brian, we are getting close to that second good time of the year in the field. The yesterdays totals were,
7 coppers
2 timbers (both gravid)
3 prairie kings
1 corn
1 cow snake
2 racers
10 ringnecks

I'll post more pic's on the KHS message board later. Always fun to get out with you, give me a holler and we'll hook up.

Look forward to hearing Toms insights on his project. Personally I would never want one myself, I like regular ole snakes. Guess I'm lame like that lol! Phil

You know what Phil. This guy Chip has an unrelated line of Goini, completely normal.....and honestly he seems to pride himself more on those than the Amels. I will ask him to get some pics of those too.....they are really nice. I will also repost pics of my possible het....which will be called an Eastern....again LOL But it is Goini. Had next to no pattern at all as a baby, it was butt ugly...Chip and I met a few years back at a show and he saw me looking at the snakes and asked if I liked Floridana and whatnot. I got the snake for next to nothing. I am a morph fanatic but Goini to me are almost ALL morphs in the sense they have so many looks....which is why I always liked them and have high hopes for the all Amel versions. I will work on getting pics of those for you. Tom Stevens

Thanks Tom. Look forward to seeing the pics. The kingsnake known as goini may well be the most mysterious king out there. Keeps us all interested at least lol! Phil

Great numbers!! Man that timber is sweet!!!
Mail on the way!
Brian
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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

.

The Albino "goini" is not a new morph. It has already been created by other breeders and has been known about for at least several years now. I and others even remember seeing ads here on kingsnake selling them. They were created from breeding Florida Kings with them so that is just one of the reasons I and others are very skeptical.

.

...you and/or John already know my thoughts and concerns. Anyway, great snakes! Do you have some close up shots?
I am curious however, and have a question or two.
Is it your intention to keep and breed these guys only to themselves (you know what I mean right?) and thus keep this line "pure"? Or have you plans to bring the other bloodlines into the mix? Like the "blaze" or whatever?
It seems like a cool project and some pretty snakes will no doubt come from it.
I'll take all the "butt ugly" ones from ya so you won't have to look at 'em.
You know, many more albinos and morphs have hatched from wc animals that we never hear of because they are sold off or die before they are ever really "documented".
Each year there are albino s. black racers (neonates) yet you never see any adults do you??
A friend wanted to keep the one we had and it died on him. I guess if it was destined for that, then I'm glad it was in his care and not mine.
Good luck.
:Mark

Now that is something I would like to see, an albino black racer!!! Have any pics???
Brian
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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

before I turned it over.
:Mark

Now that is pretty awesome!!!!!! Im not big on morphs, but the racer is one of my favorite snakes, and to see an albino would just blow me away!!! So what is the story on this one?? Was it W/C, hatched from a W/C gravid female or C/B??

Thanks for the pic!!
Brian
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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I'm not much into albino's and all but the ones you don't see often are interesting. I would like to see an albono ringneck snake some day. That would be neat. An adult albino racer under a sheet of tin would take my breath for sure. Phil

I heard of an adult being sighted but not captured in SW FL a few years ago. The guy said it was definitely a racer and it was almost "yellowish".
I doubt I could catch it either. In the time it took me to recover from the sight,well, he'd be gone!
A number a babies are found each year that I hear of but like I said, I never hear of any that have made it to adulthood and breed.
Racers seem to need that daylight to operate correctly and an albino may react differently without it. I dunno.
I keep after the kid who found the last one I saw and I always hatch out eggs I get for just the reason of maybe hatching an albino.
:Mark

Howdy Mark. I intend to do both....I have 1.2 of these. 1 Amel and 2 possible hets. I also scored a nice normal from Mark Bell at Daytona. I know between the few of us that have them in the future we do intend to mix it up with everything. High reds and oranges, blazes and normals. Even real ugly ones LOL. It's cool if you have your doubts Mark, with any given morph some will have opinions that something is not right. However some will simply voice the opinion as that's what they think....while others will say it with if you do not believe what I believe you're a fool kind of thing and that is not cool. If you're friends with any Boide people you may know how they feel about colubrids in general and especially the morphs. It is kind of a joke to them. Since this is hardly a "big" money snake I can't see why it is just so hard to believe it fell into my lap like it did. Like you said,,,,it seems like a cool project. I have said this all along....it is just another snake to toy with. Compare it to the Amel Annulata.....those hit the market at 3000 a pop. These for a few hundred. In a way I wish all the heated Goini talks as of late were not going on so close to the timing of this snake appearing. However I have mine now, and will enjoy working with them. Regardless of what anyone says, I believe they're the real deal. The people who refuse to believe it and talk trash can not prove it is anything but real...so I won't waste too much time arguing with them. I get the impression no one looked at the pic for more than a sec. On other occasions we hear about band count, thickness of bands...speckling, and things like that. I post pics and no one says anything but prove it. Like I said....it would be cool to see some crosses posted but I don't have any ttyl Tom Stevens

well I have no reason to doubt these. I do doubt some others but I don't recall anyone pushing THOSE as 100%.
I do feel the original "discoverer" did himself and others like you and me a disservice by not hollering out as soon as the original hatched.
I also believe it would have been in his favor $$$-wise. For back then it would not have had the shadow of doubt it does today. Some of us would have jumped.
I know he could probably have cared less though and honestly when (I believe)it hatched I was having a difficult time giving away my goini babies. Maybe a "new and exciting morph" would've helped out by garnering more interest in them. Back in the early 80's there was some guys with goini and by the 90's the interest had began to wane it seemed to me. Now I see a bit of a turn for the better, even if much interest is only for the sake of arguement.
"Any press is good press" as they say.
Rock on.
:Mark