Reptile & Amphibian Forums

lol. This year was sooooo bad for me involving eastern garter snakes I just had to share.

I got 0.2 Eastern Garter adults on loan, 1 was a Melanistic, and 1 was a spectacular Blue from NY. I planned on breeding them to my 1.0 Wagner stock Melanistic.

Well about 2 months into his hibernation, he shed, and his shed was bad because he had nothing to start it on, and the water in his bowl was too cold to start it. So instead of risking losing him, I took him out of hibernation for 2 days while he got the rest of it off. And back into hibernation he went.

I assume that was my first mistake. Because then he only spent about a month in hibernation. I didn't think it would affect him.

I brought the mels. out on the same day, got the blue fresh out of hibernation a week before. The mels. ate whatever I offered them, the blue didn't. It took an extra month and a half before she ate, I got her to eat about 8 of the biggest salamanders I could find, one was this HUGE 8" mud salamander. After that she was taking f/t scented hoppers with no problems.

So I paired them off. I put the blue in the male's enclosure, 10 minutes later, they started mating. A week later, I did the same with the melanistic female, and they started mating. So far so good.

Well.... nothing became gravid, and the mel. female was not able to put on any weight no matter what she ate, and how much she ate. For some reason, the blue garter went off feed about 2 months ago, and died about 2 weeks ago. Still not sure as to why. Then the mel. female died 2 days ago. I suspect she had some internal parasites of some sort which is why she couldn't put on weight and most of the time she regurgitated every 1/10 meals.

Talk about a bad year. I have 2.1 Melanistic Easterns that will be breeding next year. Then I just have to grow up my 1.1 Erythristic Easterns, 1.0 Flame Eastern, and my 1.1 Het Albino possible het melanistic and snow. Then I'm set.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

You are most likely correct Internal parasites. What are you feeding your snakes. If it is fish they are a most likley going to get parasites. Fish are loaded with them. If one snake contacted the parasite and you put them together for breeding these internal parasites are transmitable through the water bowl or fecal mattet. First you have to get the snakes onto frozen mice. (provided they are not) Even earth worms or frozen catfish filets are better as long as you use vitamin and calcium supplements until you get the garter to eat frozen mice. If you must use pet store fish try and purchase a great many at a time and freeze them. They must be kept frozen for over 30 days in order for the parasites to die. Next if you have this problem again you can treat the animal with panacure, once a week for 3 weeks. If you can not get panacure you can go to most pet stores or feed places like Agway and buy this equestrine(for horses) parasite medication. It has fenobenzol (pardon my spelling may be off)in it. It comes in a tube and is pastey. I do not have the name of it in front of me but I can post it later. This stuff has worked great for me many times and you should not have to worry about overdoseing. I only smear atiny bit on thier food once a week for three weeks and that is it. In other words still use caution. I have done this for manny yeas and it has allways worked, and I never had problem with any of my snakes. Well good luck Greg.

When I got the mel. she was fed mainly hopper mice. But I started giving her alot of nightcrawlers because she would eat more of those, and I was trying to put weight on her.

Her previous owner said he fed her fish and mice. I have no access to feeder fish on a regular basis... so it's either worms or mice for my collection of garters. All of my adults are on mice.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Hi,it is odd worms and mice usualy do not carry those parasites. But keep an eye on your others and if they start loosing weight or throwing up then treat them. The name of the medication is Safe-Guard. It has fenbendazol in it. I read the tube a few miniutes ago. Good luck. If you need any help feel free to ask. I also checked out your web site it has some really cool snakes. I use to find a lot of Decay snakes on the empty lot next to me as well as Garters. That is how I got the female eastern for my male Flame. She is in quarentine Right now. So I will keep you in mind. They are going to build there in a few months and I hate to see there habitat destroyed.

Just a tag on; worms can indeed carry parasites. Instead of the nematodes and flukes that fish tend to come afflicted with, annelid worms can have protazoan overloads. Although worms seem to me to be a very common food item for Thamnophis (particularly young specimens) in two regions adjacent to the Mississippi River, it may come at a price depending on your worm source. Resultantly, even a very good food source can have its downsides.

Yes, I agree, that is why I try and buy my worms from a worm farm. If I need some in a bind I do catch them. That is why I try and get everything on mice as quick as possible, then I treat them just in case. It is better to be safe than sorry. Out of 6 Oregon Red Spoted babies of mine only 2 are taking mouse tails.The others will only take minnows right now. So I am freezing the fish and cutting them open and scenting mouse tails.

I like fish very much as food for Thamnophis. For many individuals that work with other more naturally rodent-oriented snakes, fish may not be nearly so convenient as they are for me.

In the case of baby garters, small, as-clean-as-possible worms are obviously a great choice, but come with the aforementioned risk factor that can be very difficult to assess or control.

As for fish, nematode and fluke parasites are the main pathogens with which to be concerned. Fortunately, since aquaculture has concerned itself with the well-being of our foodfishes for many years, we have options. Some fish flakes and mashes (powder for fry) are manufactured in a medicated state to rid fish of these problems. If one was to set up a thirty or fifty gallon tub for minnows, they could be maintained untill clean to serve as a practical (and far more nutritionally realistic for valuable, growing young) food source for neonatal Thamnophis than are mouse tails.

Another option is to manipulate parasites with a generational approach. Whether fish are caught from a ditch or bought from a top-notch aquarium shop, they have the potential for carrying the above pathogens. Fortunately, there is no dearth in the ornamental fish trade of easy-to-breed fishes that can serve the purpose of snake food production. Once guppies, mollies, platies, swordtails and mosquitofish reproduce, the offspring can normally be considered clean if quickly removed from the parents. F1 generation babies can serve as a quick-growing, very practical food or can be raised themselves to serve as safe breeders.

With this kind of approach, Thamnophis are unlikely to encounter the ontogenetic difficulties that a steady diet of mouse tails could inflict. When one is considering raising these snakes to breed in turn, the effects of a positive ontogenetic development early in life becomes of crucial concern. There would be little difficulty (so long as one set up fish production ahead of time to account for the potentially huge litters Thams can throw) in taking a fish-based dietary approach until the snakes are large enough to consume an entire pinky. Just options.

Get rid of the mouse tails and cut up ft pinkies into tiny peices and scent with fish. Then switch to pinky parts.