Reptile & Amphibian Forums

History....

Im not exactly sure how old Pogo (my adult male) is, i got him 4-5 yrs ago from a very neglectful owner. He was the thinnest leo i have ever seen. he was at least 1-2 years old when i first got him because he was full grown. He was in really rough shape, but pulled through amazingly.

Since i have had him he has always been a little fatty...a great eater...solid as a rock. However...lately i have been having some issues with him. He isn't eating as consitantly, his eyesight (which was never very good) seems to be getting worse as the years pass, and he started losing weight. I ran a fecal on him a few weeks ago and found a couple Capillaria oocysts. We treated him for that and i will be checking another fecal on wednesday.

The set up...

before you ask, lol. He is housed alone in a 20gallon long tank, substrate is paper towels, he has a humid and a dry hide, water dish, calcium dish, tank is heated by an UTH with a hot spot of 90 and ambient temps in the 80s.

The questions...

Pogo seems as if his health just isn't going as good lately as i wish it would. I worry about him because i am not positive on his age, i know he is at least 6, but in honesty he could be 10 or even older. I have never owned a geriatric leo and i dont know what to expect. I was wondering if you folks with older leos could give me some input on your experience.

Also, i worry about the effects of his previous malnutrition...could this shorten his lifespan? Does anyone have any rescues who survived real neglect and lived to be geriatric? How did they fare in their older age?

i also worry about organ function, particularly liver...capillaria are freqently seen with liver problems (from my readin?) and i worry that their presence may mean something is going on. I am going to run a full blood panel on him to check blood counts and organ function but im just getting worried and looking for experience or imput.

Please help....

thanks

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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
1.1.2 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo, Louise, Orion, Jeffrey Nothing)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)

everyone is going to leap down my throat for this (it goes against current dogma, oh no, not that), but i feel i should mention it. leos are one of the reptiles that can get effected by cholesterol, and die younger because of it, often because their livers can't handle it. if you've fed him a lot of any of the meal/super/king or waxworms, they are (in my opinion) too high in fat to serve as a staple. so are butterworms. long term, they shorted lifespan (like feeding someone only steak or something). crickets can be better, it all depends on what you feed them. silkworms are the most excellent, because they are super low-fat. my vet has been trying to get me to feed earthworms, because they are even better, but i am too fond of earthworms. so, frankly, i would put him on a diet change, if applicable. however, do not let him fast. if he fasts, his liver is going to try and process all the excess he has stored up in his tail, and that is even worse than waxies, and may cause his liver to fail in his weakened state. there's a word for this, but i've forgotten it.

sounds like you care a lot for him, though, and he is very cute. i hope he pulls throgh alright. leos can live up to 20 years, especially unbred males, easily. so don't give up! take hm to an exotics specialist vet if his condition doesn't improve quickly. if he stops eating, get ahold of any vet to buy some z/d Rx cat food (moist). it makes a good slurry to feed by dropper.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, {lost count} hermit crabs (of unknown species), 3.8.5 leopard geckoes, 0.0.6 korean fire-bellied toads, 0.0.6 strawberry hermit crabs, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

His diet has consisted of crickets and mealworms with the occasional treat of waxworms. I am going to be getting some silkies soon which i hope he will eat.

I use A/D as a slurry usually if i have to use any perscription diet, is X/D better? A/D is made for syringe feeding.

I think my first step is to run a full panel and check out kidney and liver function. I agree with you that obesity and poor diet leads to shortened life spans in captive reptiles, but i was unaware of this problem until a couple years ago, i only hope its not too late.
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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
1.1.2 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo, Louise, Orion, Jeffrey Nothing)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)

His diet has consisted of crickets and mealworms with the occasional treat of waxworms. I am going to be getting some silkies soon which i hope he will eat.

I use A/D as a slurry usually if i have to use any perscription diet, is X/D better? A/D is made for syringe feeding.

I think my first step is to run a full panel and check out kidney and liver function. I agree with you that obesity and poor diet leads to shortened life spans in captive reptiles, but i was unaware of this problem until a couple years ago, i only hope its not too late.

What about his previous malnutrition, could that affect his health now?
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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
1.1.2 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo, Louise, Orion, Jeffrey Nothing)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)

dude, it souds like you are doing well by him. you have nothing to be ashamed of whatsoever, you have clearly been a good parent to pogo. he might not beinto silkies, but he might love them- they are slow-moving, so he won't have to chase them around if he decides he likes them!

thinking of crickets, something does come to mind that i remembered marsha from golden gate geckos saying- once she had this problem where she had a few leos all die at the same time. she had necropsies done, and discovered it was a fungus that the leos had gotten from eating crickets which had been fed molding food. so she started ordering her crickets from somewheres else, and it never happened again. so, i guess, since he eats crickets, maybe that could be something that wouldn't show in a fecal?

i agree with cherri, though. his health was surely effected by his past, through no fault of your own. i myself have a little runt that didn't eat properly in his youth, and he is smaller than another one i have a year his junior. (i haven't had personal experience with parasites in my leos other than pin worms, so i can't give you capillaria advice.)

i would advise taking the man (who looks good in his photo below) to a herp vet. they can do as much stuff as you have mun-mun to pay them. heh. i hesitated to do that with my own first leo, and lost her as a consequence, so i always run around telling everyone to take their leos to the vet at the drop of a hat, just in case. though maybe they won't find anything (and likely not unless you pay them quite a bit), i wish i had done it when my leo started acting weird.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, {lost count} hermit crabs (of unknown species), 3.8.5 leopard geckoes, 0.0.6 korean fire-bellied toads, 0.0.6 strawberry hermit crabs, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

Yeah, i am bringing him in next week for a full blood work up.

The silkies should be in any day...i am really hoping he is into them.

I just couldnt stand to see him suffer more...i want to know what is going on so if its is something really bad i can have him euthanized before he suffers too badly. He has been through enough in his life already, i can at least offer him peace. That being said, of course i will treat any treatable condition and keep working with him as long as he needs. As long as he maintains weight *crosses fingers*

hopefully it will all be ok...

thanks for all the advice!
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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
1.1.2 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo, Louise, Orion, Jeffrey Nothing)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)

Altered, your husbandry is always excellent. I think Pogo is extremely blessed to have met you!

Can you post a current photo of Pogo? What is it about his weight and behaviour that especially worries you?

Everyone, every book, and every care sheet says that "well-cared for leopard geckos can live to 20 years...and even longer!"...but I think this is a false representation of the average life span. You take wonderful care of your leos and I can't imagine him being in any better place. He may just be getting older and finding it more difficult to keep weight on, etc...my grandma is the same way and she's still extremely spritely and walks her dogs MILES every day, LOL!

However...

Ok, I can't put a positive spin on this, but in my own rescue experience, I've seen many rescues pack on pounds, start looking awesome, and later down the road, experience devastating health problems due to prior abuse.

This is usually pertains more to leos that were sick/neglected/mistreated as babies or juveniles still in development/still growing. Unfortunately, I've seen sudden organ failure in several completely healthy leos due to earlier development issues and an odd susceptibility to disease (bacterial/systemic, parasitical, etc.) due to underdeveloped immune systems. Even more interestingly, I've seen many leos that would have died right away if they hadn't reached a vet/spca/resuce center, but were taken in and medicated with a range of antibiotics and antiparasiticals. They got a new lease on life, gained weight and personality...and then later in life contended with numerous health issues and stunted development/regrowth due to the medication. So sad

ACK. Well, I didn't mean this to be so depressing, but my vote for Pogo is that he's been through some hard times, shortening his life span and making slightly more sensitive to aging. But since he's void of any relapses and was probably full-grown when you got him, I bet he'll live a long, happy life with you and just needs a little extra help along the way!
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Too many Leos
1.0 feline "Spot"
0.1 canine "Tika"

Wow. First of all thanks for all the kind words, i really appreciate them.

and also, thanks for the great advice, unfortunately that was sorta the same thing i was thinking. I didnt think there could be any way he could have sustained such neglect and have it not have had an impact on his organs.

The biggest things i have noticed about him are his change in "attitude" and weight loss. The weight loss hasn't been dramatic, or even excessive, but it is noticable. Im not positive how much he weighed before, i only had a small scale that weighed up to 114grams, and he topped that out. Recently i got a larger scale and he is weighing in at 114grams on the nose, but i can see it in his tail that he has lost a little. Its not as plump as it was before. In all honesty though i would probably say he has only lost 5grams..maybe 10.

As for his change in "attitude"... he used to be a real avid hunter...his eyesight never seemed too good but he loved to chase! He stalked down crickets and was really excited at feeding time. Lately he isn't so excited...usually he doesn't attack the crickets when they first get in the tank (which he used to do) but instead waits and picks them off slowly. He definately isn't chowing down as much as he used to as well. And generally he just seems a bit more subdued. Its hard to say though...i get very attached to my animals and i have been known to be a bit paranoid, so some of the behavior stuff may be all in my head.

He also had that bought of Capillaria a few weeks ago, so i worry about that as well. Im rechecking a fecal tomorrow to make sure its all clear.

I first noticed a change in pogo about 2 months ago...but he still would hunt and for the most part it was very subtle. It is still pretty subtle, but i definatley am begining to worry about him, especially since i am unsure of the age and he had such a rough past.

I ordered some silkworms yesterday hoping that a. he will like them (he loves waxies and silkworms look sort of similiar...i have my fingers crossed) and also b. he will at leastbe getting the maximum nutrition out of whatever amount he will eat.
I just snapped a pic of him today...which is below.

What sort of special care do you think he will need? Tweezer feeding? he is pretty good at eating from tweezers so that wouldnt be too bad.What other sorts of things might he require?

Do you have any experience with Capillaria or any idea if it may mean there is problems in his liver?

thanks somuch!

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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
1.1.2 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo, Louise, Orion, Jeffrey Nothing)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)