Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Let me start by saying that I live in NY where as most of you know venomous species (of reptiles) have been banned. This law as well as similar laws being passed in other states is meant to protect us and others from ourselves. Fine and dandy... What I don't understand is that I can walk into a pet store and buy myself a blue ring octopus which in my opinion is far more dangerous than just about any venomous snake. For those who may be unfamiliar with the blue ring, it is one of the worlds most venomous animals (just behind the box jellyfish I believe), it also has no bones in its body which enables it to fit through the smallest of spaces, combine this with extreme intelligence and you have yourself a damn good escape artist.

The stonefish is another example. While it may not escape like the octopus. This is still a very dangerous animal. One is not likey to survive a close encounter with the dorsal spines of this fish

These are only examples, there are many dangerous animals out there. I'm not suggesting that these should be banned as well. I'm only saying I don't see the reasoning behind banning the venomous reptiles.

Of course there is a good reason. It is a politician's wet-dream to have a law passed under their administration. Their resume is fatter and they get elected to higher positions of authority to make more laws to justify their enormous paychecks. Otherwise, they would just fall asleep at their desks, feet up or not.

Dan

The answer is simple: reptiles (especially venomous ones) strike fear in the hearts of most people. Fish do not. The issue isn't what creature is more venomous. The issue is what creature is PERCEIVED to be the most dangerous. Snakes (non-venomous as well as venomous) will unfortunately win that title in the eyes of the general public everytime.

I certainly agree.

I know people that wont even step into the same room as a bearded dragon. Why? Because they might get eaten.

People, generally, are scared of what they don't know, or don't understand. In my opinion, familiarisation is the key.

All that many people know of snakes is shown by movies to the likes of "Anaconda", or better yet, the seaqual (just as fantastic as the first).

Until this changes, the general populus will always fear the very things we awe and admire.

Aaron.
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Happy Herping

Great points above.

More than anything else though these laws get pushed through because "Animal rights" groups spend lots of money on promoting parinoia in the general public and also contribute a lot to politacal war chests. Politicians scratch the back that scratches theirs.

Also there is the "bandaid effect". A politician can point to a bit of Legislation (that means nothing to him) as an example of him taking steps towards protecting the public...looks great on campaign resumes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Politicians pass these reptile bans on fear not fact. If they looked at the satistics they would see how stupid they really are for trying to pass these laws. I remember seeing in a Vivarium magazine years ago, Staistics on Pet reptile related deaths in the United States. In a about a 10 year span there was only a handful, I think it was 6 people that died due to their reptiles. On the other hand there were actually hundreds of deaths every year, and around 1500 serious injuries from dogs. Horses too, were right in the same ball park as the dogs for deaths and injuries to humans on a yearly basis, not a decade basis. When I look at these satistics it really ticks me off that these politcians have such one-track minds. This is supposed to be a free country last I checked. LOOK AT THE FACTS NOT THE FEAR IN YOUR TUNNEL VISIONED HEAD!

Yes those are very dangerous animals but you also have to remember that there is a big difference between the octopus and a cobra. While both are great escape artists, the octopus has to escape into a water environment whereas the cobra would have little problem getting out of the cage, slither across the floor and slide into bed with you. Thats not to say that the fish should be regulated differently, you know as soon as some dumba** sees the octopus their hand will soon be in there trying to see what it feels like!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Actually the octopus can escape into a dry environment just fine. And it is certainly possible that it will live long enough on land to kill someone.

np
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

How fast can an octopus move? Just wondering if it's as fast as a taipan? or Death Adder?

A stone fish isn't likely to seek out a person, but merely wait for someone to step on it.

An octopus is only likely to harm someone if that person is stupid (or ignorant) enough to walk up to it and touch it.

I think that the main thing separating snakes from these animals is that these animals don't show aggression. Not that all venomous snakes display agression, but there's the potential (and that's what counts).

Lets see..."potential for aggression..."

Perhaps we should regulate Humans?

No wait...we are still trying to do that....

(lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

With every day that goes by, so does another liberty.

Tough call...between those who have the brains to manage without regulation...and those who need tighter controls.

Look at the snipping in New O. Proof that some of us just haven't evolved enough to be allowed to wander freely.

That's the rub. Logic dictates that accross the board regulations are ridiculous. Yet in the name of Freedom, we put forth laws that discriminate against the competent and law abiding to control the incompetant and criminals.

Bummer............

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

... to what extent should liberty be sacraficed in exchange for 'the greater good of the most number of people'?

I can certainly understand the reasoning behind the sacrafice of our liberties in order to protect ourselves and others. Believe me, i've had this heated arguement many times (albeit normally with a beer or two). But i think sometimes that sacrafice goes to far, without enough gain in return (for ones self, or others).

Yes, regulate reptiles. Yes, charge a fee. Yes, restrict keeping. It's all in the name of monitoring numbers, keeping native species native (to countries, and to specific regions/areas within countries), etc, and protecting those who can't make adequate decisions for themselves. But don't make bans on those whom are competant. Lukily, in Victoria, Australia, there is very little regulation on the keeping of vens. You pay the fee (which is about double the fee you pay for keeping non-vens), you keep the hots. No big deal.

Does Australia regulate the keeping of crocodilians? While I like snakes and greatly enjoy them....I LOVE crocodilians. If they dont regulate the keeping of crocs, I think I am moving to aussie land.- enough of this U.S. crap!

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

I'm not all that sure, but i'll check it out for you. I know two people that keep or have kept crocs at home. One lived on acreage in Queensland, and the other lives here in Victoria. There might be restrictions on numbers, enclosure requirements 100mm toughened laminated glass, 4 feet underground and 10 feet above should suffice though

Okay, got it... A guide to laws relating to keeping wildlife for private purposes in Victoria. You'll notice that freshwater crocolile (Crocodylus johnstoni)and saltwater crocodile (Crocodylus porosus) are in schedule 4, requiring an advanced licence. All purchases and sales of schedule 4 animals require written notification to the DSE. There are no limitations on numbers for schedule 4. Also note that minors need to provide written proof of competency to be eligible for an advanced licence, but, for adults, all that's required is the $.

So, what flight will you be on?
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Happy Herping

Sweet! Thanks for the info. Do you guys get snow at all, or will I need to travel back to the states for snow-boarding and stuff?

Also, how frequently do incidences like hurricanes and all those wonderful things occurr in Australia?

Sorry for the questions and thank you for your answers.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

That's okay.

There are many misconceptions about Australia thoughout the world. I'd just like to clear a few of those up...

1. No, we don't all have wallablies in our backyards
2. No, we don't all own kangaroos
3. No, we're not all fun-loving alcoholics (okay, maybe we are)
4. No, we don't all live on farms and 'work on the land'
5. No, we don't all act like Steve Irwin

Glad that's cleared up.

Now...

1. Yes, we get snow, but only on given mountains (which aren't all that far away from Melbourne). So yes, you could board. It doesn't snow throughout suburbia as it does in some parts of the US. Yes... the kids get excited when it hails (i remember we used to put out buckets to catch the hail).

2. We only really get hurricanes around the north coast of Australia. And even then, they aren't all that common. No earthquakes. No volcanos. No tornados. We're pretty lucky in that regard.
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Happy Herping

But...if my memory serves me, you also are very limited on the herps you can keep therewith severe limitations on what can be imported.

I am I right in this?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Spot on. No international importation whatsoever (and consequently no exportation.) See the link in my post above to the licencing requirements. There are schedules of animals that may be kept in Vic (found within the link). If it's not on the list, you can't keep it.

However, we can locally import from other states (with an import/export permit, which is free).
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Happy Herping

Ok, this isn't looking good.

So would:
2 Alligators, nile croc, salty, dwarf caiman (palp. not trig.), burmese pythons, reticulated pythons, anacondas, EDB's, WDB's, Asian water monitors, etc be allowed? If not then that just royally sucks. What kind of cool native species are in Aussie land?

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

If it's not on the list, it's not allowed.

Stay in the US then lol
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Happy Herping

Do you happen to have a link to that particular list of the "allowed" species?

Thanks,
Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

Chris,

I posted a link to it a few posts back (in this thread)

Here it is again. The list starts about halfway though the document.

The Infamous List

Cheers,
Aaron.
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Happy Herping

Coming out of lurkdom just to say... ROTFLMAO! Great post! It's not every day that I get learn a bit and get to laugh my head off at the same time. Thanks.

>>That's okay.
>>
>>There are many misconceptions about Australia thoughout the world. I'd just like to clear a few of those up...
>>
>>1. No, we don't all have wallablies in our backyards
>>2. No, we don't all own kangaroos
>>3. No, we're not all fun-loving alcoholics (okay, maybe we are)
>>4. No, we don't all live on farms and 'work on the land'
>>5. No, we don't all act like Steve Irwin
>>
>>Glad that's cleared up.
>>
>>Now...
>>
>>1. Yes, we get snow, but only on given mountains (which aren't all that far away from Melbourne). So yes, you could board. It doesn't snow throughout suburbia as it does in some parts of the US. Yes... the kids get excited when it hails (i remember we used to put out buckets to catch the hail).
>>
>>2. We only really get hurricanes around the north coast of Australia. And even then, they aren't all that common. No earthquakes. No volcanos. No tornados. We're pretty lucky in that regard.
>>-----
>> Happy Herping
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Want to know about a dangerous animal? According to the Balloon Council, an average of 6 CHILDREN DIE each year by choking on balloons. This is on an order of magnitude similar to venomous reptiles(which may be 2x or 3x this number for all ages). So balloon animals really need to be scrutinized.

its never funny when children die, but it is very ironic thinking of balloon animals kill more than most snakes! I agree though we need to push for regulation of these dangerous balloon animals!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids