Reptile & Amphibian Forums

STATE GAZETTE (Dyersburg, Tennessee) 30 August 05 Child bit by snake at circus (Nick Fowler)
Amanda Walton said her 5-year-old son Seth was excited to see a snake at the circus in Newbern until the 5-foot Burmese python bit into his shoulder and refused to let go.
The snake had to be pulled from the boy's shoulder, ripping the skin in the process, according to the boy's mother.
"You could hear my son's skin rip when he pulled the snake off my son," she said.
Seth was rushed to the Dyersburg Regional Medical Center, where the bite wound was treated, and he was released.
Though snakes do not carry rabies, Walton said, she is still concerned about other diseases the snake could have been carrying.
After leaving the hospital, the family filed a report with the Newbern Police Department.
Newbern police made contact with Alfredo Curiel, who was in charge of the crew that was dismantling the circus equipment. Curiel was able to corroborate Walton's story, but the police were unable to locate the owners of the circus, who they say are Ray and Claudette Valentine. The phone number the owners left has been disconnected.
Walton said the incident occurred during intermission at around 7:45 p.m. During that time, Walton approached the snake handler, because she likes snakes and wanted to get a better look at the python.
"When I walked up there the guy put the snake around my neck," she said.
The snake was trying to get near her head, and it was trying to rap itself around her neck, she said.
The snake began to constrict around her neck, and as she pulled the snake away, the snake bit Seth, according to the police report.
"He jerked his head out of my hand and grabbed hold of my son," Walton said. "It jerked my son to the ground."
She said her son was traumatized by the event and that it had caused him to have nightmares. She said her 2-year-old son was there as well, and that if the snake had bitten him, it could have killed him.
Walton is asking that any witnesses of the incident to contact her.
Child bit by snake at circus

Not to knock the circus "circuit" but anytime you have to travel around the country with wild animals, where, they are never really able to live in ideal settings, eventually, something bad will happen. Every time an incident like this takes place, more legislation follows. I hope these people are caught, fined, jailed, and most importantly, that somehow, the child and mother who were affected by the burm, somehow come to respect and admire reptiles one day. I cringe when I see the many "wildlife acts" and even pet stores/etc that are out there that handle these animals with ZIPPO respect. They show poor handling techniques, poor judgement, and are simply in it for the "oh wow" factor. Too bad.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>STATE GAZETTE (Dyersburg, Tennessee) 30 August 05 Child bit by snake at circus (Nick Fowler)
>>Amanda Walton said her 5-year-old son Seth was excited to see a snake at the circus in Newbern until the 5-foot Burmese python bit into his shoulder and refused to let go.
>>The snake had to be pulled from the boy's shoulder, ripping the skin in the process, according to the boy's mother.
>> "You could hear my son's skin rip when he pulled the snake off my son," she said.
>>Seth was rushed to the Dyersburg Regional Medical Center, where the bite wound was treated, and he was released.
>>Though snakes do not carry rabies, Walton said, she is still concerned about other diseases the snake could have been carrying.
>>After leaving the hospital, the family filed a report with the Newbern Police Department.
>>Newbern police made contact with Alfredo Curiel, who was in charge of the crew that was dismantling the circus equipment. Curiel was able to corroborate Walton's story, but the police were unable to locate the owners of the circus, who they say are Ray and Claudette Valentine. The phone number the owners left has been disconnected.
>>Walton said the incident occurred during intermission at around 7:45 p.m. During that time, Walton approached the snake handler, because she likes snakes and wanted to get a better look at the python.
>>"When I walked up there the guy put the snake around my neck," she said.
>>The snake was trying to get near her head, and it was trying to rap itself around her neck, she said.
>>The snake began to constrict around her neck, and as she pulled the snake away, the snake bit Seth, according to the police report.
>>"He jerked his head out of my hand and grabbed hold of my son," Walton said. "It jerked my son to the ground."
>>She said her son was traumatized by the event and that it had caused him to have nightmares. She said her 2-year-old son was there as well, and that if the snake had bitten him, it could have killed him.
>>Walton is asking that any witnesses of the incident to contact her.
>>Child bit by snake at circus
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

This is ludicrous! I have worked in Carnival Shows for years now that have featured very large pythons and we NEVER would have even considered putting the snake on anyone from the audience. This "handler" for the circus is obviously ill equipped to be handling a snake in public. Which is unusual because I have known many snake handlers for circuses and carnivals and none of them had ever put one of their snakes on someone else. This guy has no respect for the animal.

When I work with snakes, we offer photos of people from the public, with a snake, BUT we do not let them hold it. They simply stand next to one of our handlers, who is holding the snake and has control of its head. The most we have ever let anyone do is put their hand on the snake to touch it, but this is always near the middle to back of the animal. Whenever the pubic has been around when we have a snake out, we always take extra care to keep the head near us, not them.

To read stories like this upsets me. It not only hurts snake owners in general, but also hurts those of us who educate with these animals in a professional and safe manner. I hope this "handler" is fined for his ignorance and the circus is fined for hiring such a dimwitted individual.

I believe, in circus and carnival shows, that a large snake needs to be treated like a tiger. Treated with respect, given attention and love, and ONLY the handler interacts with them. This is a shame....

Circusfan

There is a difference between "education" and "entertainment"

BINGO....$$$$$$$$$

As an aside, I am vehementlyl against using big cats and elephants in a circus environment; I'll bite my tongue on the rest of the comments I was going to make.

>>There is a difference between "education" and "entertainment"
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

This is just bad all around.

Now don't get me wrong, but I do think the mother is going a litle overbord. I mean a 5' burm that was trying to " constrict around her neck", still had enough snake left to reach her son, and knock him to the ground. Sorry but that can't happen. I have a 04' albino that is about 5'5", even with his tail around my neck( I don't put him there much, but I did just now to make a point), he can not reach down with enough force to knock some one over, it just can't happen.

This is like what happens when a dog bites, they hear the word "bull" and bam it's a pit bull. I have a mutt, I had his grandparents(rott and a chow), then his father(rott/chow mix)and His mother( American bull dog), he is 25%rott,25%chow,50% american bulldog, no pit at all. A few weeks ago, this kid came into my yard and tried to steal my bike, I opened the door, sent the dog after him. My boy got to that.......kid in no time bite the [bleep] out of his leg, and stoped him. When the cops came, they, Took my bike(as evidence), took the kid to a hospital, then charged the kid with theft and gave him to his mother. Now a few weeks latter I get a letter saying my dog has been listed as a vicious "pit bull", and I will be getting sued, and might have to have the dog killed!

I have never had a pit bull, I bread this dog myself, and his father, and I know for a fact he has no pit in him. The kids mother found out the dog had bull in him, and thinks all bull dogs are pits.

This sonds like the samekind of thing to me, the mother found out the snake was a burm, and is now going overbord.

Was the handler worng? 100% yes for sure.
could it of happend the way the mother said? NO a 5' burm can not wrap around your neck, and still reach a kid with enough force to knock him over.

BTW why rip the snake off the kid, any one who handles any knid of snake should know to just squirt hot/cold warter into the mouth of the snake.

In my mind, everyone did wrong, now the mother is trying to make her 15 mins of fame into 2hrs of fame.

Just so you all know, I'm not going to have to put my dog down, I talked to the people at Animal services, they know me, and the dog, and have told me not to worry about it. I still might get sued, but it's still better then letting someone steal from me.

I think this story is bogus. If you look in the ball python, iguana, snapping turtle and red ear slider forums you will find similar stories posted by the same person that started this one, and all of them happened within the last two or three days. It would be one heck of a coincidence if the 5 most well know herps in the country just happened to create newspaper worthy horror stories in three days. I may be wrong and if I am proven wrong I will apologize, but that is my thought. -Joe

If you read the posts by the same thread writer in all the forums, you'll see he is only providing stories gleaned from newpapers.
The link to the actual news story in it's corresponding newpaper is at the bottom of each post.
This writer has been posting these news stories for some time now.
Sometimes the news stories are so stupid, you'll know right away that nobody could actually make that s**t up.
My 8yr old som was bitten by a burm just a little under 5ft.
After the sucker latched on,my son's first instinct was to get the snake off...he did.
After the expected crying, he just stopped cold...no crying, and said...hey! That did'nt hurt.
He was around 6 at the time. He was holding one of my younger snakes as he always still does, when the burm went up his shirt sleeve. Well, he tried pulling him out by the tail. And said burm did not like that.
No constricting, no pulling him to the ground, no chance of this burm killing him.
Keep in mind, when a business is at the receiving end of this.
In this case the circus, there is a HUGE motivator to embelish the story a bit...it's called money.
However...there is no excuse for stupidity. The employee should have controlled the snake while the boy viewed.
And now stupidity is going to cost them a whole lot of money.

Well like I said I would, I apologize. I have never seen any post from him with news stories and I have been lurking for awhile. Guess I just wasn't paying attention until last night, paying too close attention I guess. -Joe

Yeah Wes posts these stories out on the various forums here depending what the story is about. Nothing I have ever seen him post was made up and infact I enjoy reading most of the ones that I see he posted and quite often get a good laugh out of them. He posted one a while back that had two articles on the same event and it is amazing how much the snake grew from one article to the other!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Now that I know they are real stories I am actually reading them and looking forward to more! I wouldn't have the patience to go find all these articles. -Joe

Dear Burm People ... some of you have seen versions of this previously posted in other Kingsnake.com forums, I thought prechance it might be of modest value in your specialist forum since I don't get into your specific site as often as I do others.

Dear Burm People ... some of you have seen versions of this previously posted in other Kingsnake.com forums, I thought prechance it might be of modest value in your specialist forum since I don't get into your specific site as often as I do others.
respects
Wes

= = = = =
Dear Herp Friends;

My herp press postings are the result of a 1994 mailing of a toad-related clipping to Ellin Beltz … then the ‘Herp News’ editor for the late-lamented Vivarium magazine. I got into the habit of sending her clippings from local papers, a vice that accelerated with the arrival of the Internet. Since about 2001, I’ve been posting herp-related press items to a variety of e-forums and magazines/journals; of which Kingsnake.com is the dominant target, as I find them and time allows.

I have one of those unique careers that serve two functions: it puts food on the table AND lets me support my hobby ... sort of. One of my morning tasks as an Army staff officer in the headquarters is to skim through 60 English-language on-line newspapers (as well as some French and German ones) to determine where the next international crisis and possible peacekeeping commitment is coming from. So, while we're skimming for Chechnya, Iraq, PNG, Bosnia and Sierra Leone; we also pick up everything we can on snake, reptile, frog, turtle, alligator, caiman, etc ... you catch the drift.

The herp-press items which appear to be most 'newsworthy' in this modest newt-keepers personal opinion or forum-experience get posted to various internet forums immediately as I find them ... the idea being that if the appropriate, specialist community hears a rumour of a herp-event on the old-boy net, they can get the original newspaper item in good time and be able to react accordingly. Besides passing information, I hope it can be used as a warning tripwire for "geesh, here it comes again *bad news* herp items" that can affect the whole community. A specialist forum is probably the best place to discuss the good/bad elements of any press story, and to offer our concerned but less experienced herping-peers a good, reasoned and (hopefully) scientific response to any press initiative.

Within Kingsnake.com’s unique venue, I try to post ‘general herp news’ to the Herp News forum, and items that ‘feature’ a specific species to the appropriate forum for ‘specialist’ discussion. (A python escape and reaction story may find it’s concurrent way to the Burm Python; Herp News and Herp Law forums).

The press - good or bad - is already out there in the open-non-herp-keeping community. If we have the original item, we are all working off of the same problem and can discuss the 'facts' of the matter (as much as the press have given us anyway) and avoid trying to talk to each other about "a friend of mine heard from his boss that xxxx " ... you get the idea.

Please note, I have been accused in various internet forums of only posting 'bad news' or ‘depressing news’. I stand guilty, but please note that I could only post what is printed ... and I tried not to editorialise or cull items. Naturally, with internet forums specializing in python/venom/crotalid/elapid's, the press only tends to print "Seven year old's pet caiman eats Volkswagen full of lawyers" stories ... unlike Frog forums that tend to get a lot of good or scientific press. Some forums, like Gilas, get almost no press at all! (Which is not necessarily a bad thing). If I seemed to be on a run of bad news in any particular forum, it’s generally because of either the subject (when was the last time somebody wrote something nice in press about ‘Puddles the Python’ or ‘Snuffles the friendly, Oz salti’?) or maybe there’s been something dramatic that the press has jumped on lately.

And if you’ll allow me a side-note on posting protocol. My modest experience with press and newspaper organisations from 1994 is that, and this is important, the stories do fall under copyright laws of at least the US, UK and Canada, and are the private property of their respective papers and services. Reposting their items is frowned upon … and reposting photos is a distinct no-no. However … my communications with various press authorities in the US and UK have resulted in an ‘indulgence’ … as long as I attribute originating paper, press service, author and URL and don’t post for my own or another’s personal gain, my press postings are viewed as an educational effort and will be ‘tolerated’ (or at least benevolently ignored).

Basically, I’m your newt keeping paperboy … my modest expertise lies with critters other than yours, but I do consider myself croc-boid-and hot ‘friendly’. I’m just trying the ensure that specialist forums have timely notice of what is in the public venue about their unique charges.

Side note to Joe: No harm done, I understand the intensity of passion when it comes to protecting the interests of our hobby/métier. Though you’ll pardon me a chuckle over your observation that “I have never seen any post from him with news stories …’ … I can’t remember ever being accused of being shy of posting. (http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=21)

And to the Burm and other Kingsnake forum members that have been kind enough to post nice comments and suggestions to my modest postings, thanks for the kind words. I learn a heck of a lot about the care and ethics associated with involvement with unique animals from your discussions of the offered press items.

Respectfully;
Wes von Papineäu
Gloucester, Canada

All dogs with the word "bull" in it were at one time all pit bulls. With the ring being the "pit", and rather than fighting dogs, they were used for bulls.
Hence the name "Bulldog"
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, the Bulldog, and the Pit Bull Terrier are all decendants of these original dogs. Look back into the history of these dogs, technically they are pit bulls.
However today, Pit Bull has an entirely new meaning.

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bulldog-breeds-types.html

follow this link on fighting dogs, and bulldog breeds.
You'll see the American Bulldog in there. And the history of bull baiting.

Sorry we go off topic

You know I thought I had heard the samething some where, but I couldn't remember where.

But still, like you said today "pit bull" means something different.

Hey Rob, First off I want to say I respect you very highly for your knowledge on herps and as a herp keeper. However, I will also agree that there IS a difference between education and entertainment. But what we do at the carnival shows, and what other handlers have done that I have known has not been for entertainment. We try to educate the public about these wonderful animals. We go into vast detail about their origins and how they have come to be here today. We also *educate* about how too many people purchase these types of snakes without taking into consideration their eventual size and feeding and end up abandoning them. We do *educate* the public about snakes and the right and wrong ways to keep them as well as the right and wrong reasons for doing so.

Now my comparison of Burms to Tigers, was not intended to upset anyone. I only made this comparision as they do tend to be a lot alike in the ways of needing constant interaction, proper feeding, proper vet checks, etc... All the while both can be killers and need to be respected as such. I know this is true first hand, from working on shows such as circuses, and seeing this comparison first hand.

Now, one could argue that at zoos, etc. where they educate the public about large constrictor snakes, could also be considered entertainment. YES it could. Do I consider it that? NO. But it could. The public is learning about a wonderful animal, but the average joe who is listening to what you are saying will still think in the back of their mind "Wow, this is cool." Young children will not listen to what is being said and will only look on, being entertained by seeing such a "cool" animal. You know this is true.

YES there is a difference between education and entertainment, but it is a fine line. Someone who just walks around with a large snake as if to say "look at me" is only trying to get attention and therefor entertain. But anyone who takes out a large snake and begins to tell people onlooking about these great animals, then they are educating. Would you agree with me? I think you would.

Again, I did not intend to upset anyone or start an arguement, but I felt as though I should clarify my point of view. And if you feel that Tigers and elephants should not be in a circus tent, that is your right to feel that way and I respect it. Do I agree with it? no. But I do respect it as your feelings.

Circusfan

The circus program you are involved with is most likely the exception rather than the norm. I have personally been to many such events and have never heard an inkling of education taking place; it was all about the entertainment and forcing animals to do things against their will. But, its nice to know that there are circuses that promote education...hopefully, they'll rub off on the others.

>>Hey Rob, First off I want to say I respect you very highly for your knowledge on herps and as a herp keeper. However, I will also agree that there IS a difference between education and entertainment. But what we do at the carnival shows, and what other handlers have done that I have known has not been for entertainment. We try to educate the public about these wonderful animals. We go into vast detail about their origins and how they have come to be here today. We also *educate* about how too many people purchase these types of snakes without taking into consideration their eventual size and feeding and end up abandoning them. We do *educate* the public about snakes and the right and wrong ways to keep them as well as the right and wrong reasons for doing so.
>>
>>Now my comparison of Burms to Tigers, was not intended to upset anyone. I only made this comparision as they do tend to be a lot alike in the ways of needing constant interaction, proper feeding, proper vet checks, etc... All the while both can be killers and need to be respected as such. I know this is true first hand, from working on shows such as circuses, and seeing this comparison first hand.
>>
>>Now, one could argue that at zoos, etc. where they educate the public about large constrictor snakes, could also be considered entertainment. YES it could. Do I consider it that? NO. But it could. The public is learning about a wonderful animal, but the average joe who is listening to what you are saying will still think in the back of their mind "Wow, this is cool." Young children will not listen to what is being said and will only look on, being entertained by seeing such a "cool" animal. You know this is true.
>>
>>YES there is a difference between education and entertainment, but it is a fine line. Someone who just walks around with a large snake as if to say "look at me" is only trying to get attention and therefor entertain. But anyone who takes out a large snake and begins to tell people onlooking about these great animals, then they are educating. Would you agree with me? I think you would.
>>
>>Again, I did not intend to upset anyone or start an arguement, but I felt as though I should clarify my point of view. And if you feel that Tigers and elephants should not be in a circus tent, that is your right to feel that way and I respect it. Do I agree with it? no. But I do respect it as your feelings.
>>
>>Circusfan
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Paperboy Comment: While not specifically 'burm related' ... though the photo may be of one, I dunno, I'm a newt guy ... I found the title and subsequent interesting because it addresses some other people's opinions of "skinnycraka's" kind initial seque into the 'educations vs entertainment' point. This is a subject that does get some modest press from time-to-time.
Cheers, Wes
The apparent master of the run-on sentance.

SOUTHERN ILLINOISIAN (Carbondale, Illinois) 30 August 05 Learning at the Fair: Audiences entertained and educated during reptile and jungle adventure shows
Photo at URL: P.J. Rothschild, 18, of Marion, is just slightly frightened by the appearance of a 10 feet, 80 pound Burmeses Python called Wilma as Danny Conner, owner and host of the Reptile Adventures show, tries telling her its going to be ok during a volunteer portion of the show Monday afternoon at the Du Quoin State Fair. Rothschild, who said she hates snakes, was goaded into the show by the audience after being picked out by Conner. (Steve Jahnke)
State fairs are known mostly for their corn dogs, the long lines of people, the concerts, the car or horse racing and even the carnival rides. But most don't think of them as an educational opportunity, a chance to learn something new. However, opportunities to learn about Mother Nature abounded Monday afternoon at the Du Quoin State Fair.
Danny Conner's Reptile Adventures, out of San Antonio, Texas, represented the first chance to learn. Incorporated into his show are a wide variety of pythons, vipers, crocodilians and lizards, all with interesting stories that Conner uses to teach his audience members.
Conner has been traveling the country with his reptiles for the past 15 years to places like Du Quoin and other similar venues. He said when he first got started, he wasn't sure if people would be interested in seeing an educational show as opposed to a thrill-type show. But as it turned out, "People wanted facts, not crap."
Audience members looked on in awe during the show at some of the creatures Conner presented. A few lucky participants even got a "hands-on" experience.
Part of the proceeds from his show go toward helping prevent certain animals from becoming extinct, such as the Chinese alligator and the alligator snapping turtle. "We try to give something back," Conner said.
Just one tent away from the reptiles stood the second chance for learning. And like Conner, the owner/operator of that venue was also in a fight to keep animals from going extinct.
"Jungle Jay" Riggs of Amarillo, Texas, who operates the Big Cats show at the Du Quoin State Fair, uses the creatures in his show, not to entertain, but to educate his audience about animal abuse.
"We don't beat the animals with whips to get them to jump through hoops," Riggs explains to the audience. Instead, he said they use "a lot of food and love" to train them. And that's just what the show is about. Participants will not see the cats perform all sorts of tricks, but they will learn about the lineage of the animals, what and how much they eat, and why they don't make good pets.
Riggs used to work in law enforcement training police dogs. However, during one particular drug bust, they came across a lion cub. After staring into its eyes and feeling like it said "thank you" for rescuing it, he decided he wanted to devote his time to saving exotic animals.
His crew now travels the country with 15 different cats, including several Bengal tigers, an African lion and a South American cougar named Ceasar that his group has rescued from illegal animal auctions and hunting lands. They have close to 30 big cats at the sanctuary back in Texas.
Riggs passed along one more important message about his cats to his audience before ending the show: "They don't belong in your home, they belong in their natural habitat."
earning at the Fair: Audiences entertained and educated during reptile and jungle adventure shows