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Alphadragon, I have a question for ya!

FireDrake Sep 01, 2005 09:36 PM

I see you said a few posts down that if that white dragon had clear nails it is a white hypopastel, or incorrectly labled leucisitc. I agree with those who say the "leucistics" aren't really because they do not have blue eyes. I like the term "marketed leucistic" (I'll call it ML, easier to type) because so many people still call them leucy and I like having an easily understood lable.
The way I understand it, the ML is a simple recessive gene, while your average "snow" is not. Am I right?
So, my main question is this: is your dragon Cleopatra a marketed leucy? Or is she a clear nail snow? I ask mainly because I bought one of her babies from you (I love him!) and I also have a 100% het ML female, if I breed them will I get MLs? Or will I just get clear nail babies?

Sorry if this is kinda wandering, I'm really trying hard to understand BD genetics, and it seems unfortunately that there is so much confusion out there. For instance I had a big name breeder tell me that ALL nicely colored BDs are hypomelanistic. I don't know if I believe that. What do you think?

Thanks!!

Sarah

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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

Replies (7)

alphadragon Sep 02, 2005 12:11 AM

Wow all Good questions!! Let me qualify my any statments before I make them.

These opinions are my opinions from personal breedings, conversations with other breeders that have worked with genetic traits much longer than I, Research and observations.

Yes Hypopastel(Hypomelanistic with clear nails) is a recessive trait. Marketed Leucistics are Hypopastels that came from stock that had very little color. Most hypopastels here in the states came from colorful stock or had color bred into them.

As you know Kevin imported these dragons from England and was told they were Leucisctics. They very obviously were not Leucistics for the reasons you already listed.

So now that that is straight lets get into what you were saying about Cleopatra, she is from a Hypopastel line that is completely unrelated to Kevin's Leucistics. She carries the same trait as a Leucistic which is she is hypomelanistic with clear nails. So if you breed a marketed Leucy to Cleopatra you get all hypopastels/marketed Lucys the trait is compatible and I am 99% sure they are the same alleles.

First of all let me say something about Snows. People as always will put names on dragons to sell them and with snows you can't just tell by looking at the animal that it is a snow. I believe that there is a another Hypomelanistic gene that people refer to as snow/hypo in BDs and I believe it to be Codom. I think it is hard to pick these guys out unless you track the lineage and breedings really well. I actually have this gene runnning through some of my dragons. What this gene does is lighten a dragon after several sheds and most keep lightening up. You also can see this trait in the first generation. Have you ever seen a White Chris allen Red? Have you seen a really really light Cawley red? Yes I have and when bred to a cartain dragon you will get a really really white one.

As far as what to call your dragons that hatch is different then what they genetically are. For me I will breed one of my Lucys males to Cleopatra next year and produce MLs but I will probably market them as extreme Pastels or Super Pastels slash MLs because they are not Lucys but a genetic trait combined with several generations of breeding dragons for reduced color and pattern which is the basic difference between hypopastels and Lucys. I feel that Extreme pastel is a more appropraite name for these guys and also fits in with the reast of the reptile industries naming schemes. I will also tell you that Cleopatra is whiter than all of my MLs.

As far as the big boy you bought he is one of the dragons that was very light and I would guess he will be white as an adult but you can see he has color right now and since his dad was bright orange and red as a baby it is pretty likely that you will get color in your babies. I am not going to tell you not to sell them as Lucys but you have to be able to qualify there lineage and that his dad was a colored dragon. It is like you starting a few years into a breeding project. You are not at the ground level but 1 or 2 rungs up. Marketed Lucys should be patternless and white after only a few months but don't get me wrong there are alot of Lucys being sold that have plenty of color. So it is up to you but keep in mind what the prototype, for lack of a better word, Lucy should look like.

Thanks,
Randy

>>I see you said a few posts down that if that white dragon had clear nails it is a white hypopastel, or incorrectly labled leucisitc. I agree with those who say the "leucistics" aren't really because they do not have blue eyes. I like the term "marketed leucistic" (I'll call it ML, easier to type) because so many people still call them leucy and I like having an easily understood lable.
>>The way I understand it, the ML is a simple recessive gene, while your average "snow" is not. Am I right?
>> So, my main question is this: is your dragon Cleopatra a marketed leucy? Or is she a clear nail snow? I ask mainly because I bought one of her babies from you (I love him!) and I also have a 100% het ML female, if I breed them will I get MLs? Or will I just get clear nail babies?
>>
>>Sorry if this is kinda wandering, I'm really trying hard to understand BD genetics, and it seems unfortunately that there is so much confusion out there. For instance I had a big name breeder tell me that ALL nicely colored BDs are hypomelanistic. I don't know if I believe that. What do you think?
>>
>>Thanks!!
>>
>>Sarah
>>
>>
>>-----
>>FireDrake Exotics
>>www.FireAndLilac.com
-----
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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Melinda666 Sep 02, 2005 12:26 PM

I know nothing about dragons, but I do know that the dragon I bought from Cleopatra and Maximus is stunning. I can't wait to see what else comes from Cleopatra!!

alphadragon Sep 02, 2005 01:14 PM

Wow I am so Glad you guys like them!! You guys don't know how happy that makes me feel!!
-Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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CheriS Sep 03, 2005 11:27 AM

I have always told you I think Cleopatra is one of the most stunning dragons I have ever seen, not only the color od her, but the build also.

First time I saw a photo of her my mouth dropped open. I hope you are able to keep lots of her offspring and breed them into some of the other unique lines you have now
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www.reptilerooms.com

alphadragon Sep 04, 2005 01:40 AM

Hey Cheri,
Thanks alot!!The money is in the mail...lol
-Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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FireDrake Sep 02, 2005 02:05 PM

Thanks so much, that does explain it. I agree that ML's should be called something else, your terms make sense.

My big boy was very colorful at first and already I can tell he is getting more and more white! I am very excited and hope he grows fast!

He is the replacement for a snow male I had that died rather suddenly and unexpectedly this past spring. He was a very very white dragon with very black nails. He was striking! I was looking forward to breeding him to my Sundial salmonglow X Blanca female to make some nice light colored dragons. I was heartbroken when he died and immediately started looking for another really white snow male. That's when I came across Maximus and Cleopatra, this is before the eggs hatched, I knew I needed one of those babies as a replacement even if they weren't entirely white. I am very happy with him!

Thanks!!

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

alphadragon Sep 02, 2005 05:26 PM

Hey Sarah,
I am esctatic that you guys both love your dragons. I love updates and pictures.
-Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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