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I dropped by a friends property in Springfield, Oregon while on vacation last week.. She offered to take me out to herp her property, so I told her i'd love some Red Spot garters, as they are among my favorites.. We managed to find a single pair during the hottest part of the day.. I was pretty certain they were Oregon Red Spots, until I saw some photos of some Red Sideds that looked exactly like them... Which do you think they are?

They both shed on the trip home. The female is very large, around 3ft and already took a jumbo f/t mouse. Male is much much smaller(natureally), around 2ft, but is much nicer looking...

Female

Male

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Brienne Earnst

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If they were caught in OR.I would say they are definitely red spots.Red spots along with all other garters vary in color.Even CA red sides sometimes look just like regular red sides or even valley garters.They are all so closely related.That female is very nice.

First of all keep in mind they are a subspecies of the Common Garter Thamnophis sirtalis. Which subspecies depends on which taxonomy list you use as there have been recent changes. Let us stick with a few of the subspecies in question.

Oregon Red-Spotted - T s concinnus (found in Oregon)
San Francisco - T s tetrataenia (Federally protected)
California Red-Sided - T s infernalis
Red-Sided - T s parietalis
Pugent Sound - T s pickeringii
Valley - T s fitchi (found in Oregon)

The recent taxonomical change combines the Red-Spotted and California Red-Sided subspecies into a single subspecies under the name T s concinnus and changes T s tetrataenia to T s infernalis ( the former name of the Calif Red-Sided). This eliminates the T s tetrataenia designation all together though the San Francisco subspecies is still recognized. These new taxonomical designations are based on an original type specimen named Coluber infernalis which has more recently been determined to be the San Francisco subspecies. I am not sure why this new configuration determined the Red-Spotted and Calif. Red-Sided to be a single subspecies. This new revision is in academic use but is not universally accepted and further research is under way. The Stebbins Field Guide uses the older classifications and they are also my preference. I keep both the Red-Spotteds and I have a California Red-Sided.

As you can see there are several possibilities for what is a Red-Spotted or a Red-Sided Garter. Both taxonomic lists place two T sirtalis subspecies in Oregon. These are T s concinnus and T s fitchi. If you accept the school that separates the Oregon red-Spotted from the California Red-Sided then your snakes are the Oregon Red-Spotted T s concinnus. If you accept the new school of thought then they are still concinnus but their common name would most likely be simply Red-Spotted or else California Red-Sided (to distinguish it from T s parietalis). The new list I referenced did not use common names for any subspecies.

Bottom Line: (Red-Spotted) T s concinnus.

They are great snakes and mine all do well on mice except my new borns still on guppies. Yours look to have nice coloration. You took some great photos and I am sure I am not alone in appreciating your sharing them.
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Randy Hallman

As far as I know Oregon red spots do not have yellow stripes down their sides. None the less they are beautiful! Possibly
fitchi?
Ed

This is a good point. Most of the Red-Spotteds I have seen (in captivity or in photographs) have lacked the lateral stripe as you mention. Everything I have read about the subspecies however states the lateral stripe may or may not be obscured by black. Supposedly the Valley Garters (fitchi) do not have red heads and these snakes clearly do. These pics also show a lighter ventral surface which would be a bit more consistent with descriptions of fitchi but the one pic does show more black on the ventrals than a Valley Garter supposedly would have. One of my Red-Spotteds does have some lateral striping and a darker ventral surface.
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Randy Hallman

i have had valley garters with that much red on their heads...most of themdon't have quite that much but i have had a few. I am leaning more towards valley garters on those, but they are beautiful garters any way!!!!!!!

I am interested in learning more about this. I have seen alleged concinnus with the lateral striping but I have not been able to find any fitchi with red on their heads like this. All of the information I have found states that fitchi do not have red heads, that this is a definitive trait. I will continue searching and comparing. Where are your red headed Valleys originating? Perhaps it is a more area specific morph. I am also not aware of any places where intergradations are known to occur.
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Randy Hallman

The western subspecies of T. sirtalis were originally based
on few specimens from a limited geographic area. They thus didn't
show a lot of variation between what were thought to be definative
subspecies. As more specimens have been collected over a wider
geographic area over the last century, the rules seperating these
subspecies have gotten weeker. Thus,
you have subspecies described at their extremes and not at what is
normal accross their range. I have seen Valley garters from
Utah, Idaho and Oregon with red heads. Red headedness is not
an indicator of anything more than a greater amount of red in
any given population of these animals. I have seen california
red sided garters that had very little red on their heads as well
despite the fact that they were within populations of individuals
with typical red heads.

As far as integration goes, there is definately integration taking
place amongst the western subspecies. In the Columbia river
gorge, you can find both red spotted garters and valley garters
and some that resemble both. Likewise, within the range of the
pudget sound garters you can find individuals wich look like
pudget sound garters or like valley's or like neither (ie. having
no blue or red coloration). Likewise, in the range of the
california red sided garters you can find some that resemble
San Fransisco garters. I have heard of normal looking
WC California red sided garters giving birth to San Fransisco looking
babies before.

In my opinion all the subspecies of western Sirtalis should be
combined into one. All we are seeing are color variants in different
geographic areas. Not true subspecies. The logic which has
made all of these different subspecies would also make the
melanistic eastern garters a different subspecies.
I'm sure that one could come up with a San Fransico looking
Western Sirtalis through selective breeding of high red individuals.

There are also populations of Valley garters that look pretty
much exactly like red sided garter snakes from the midwest.
The taxonomic status of the Utah/Idaho/Wyoming population has been the subject
of much debate amongst scientists in the past because of this.
It is really only the continental divide barier that has placed
some of these populations in the Valley Garter category.
This is a much better argument than external appearences.
Subspecies are best defined by where they live in conjunction
with DNA and morphological differences and not by color variations.

As far as Oregon redspotted garters belly coloration goes,
I have seen blue, yellow, and black bellied individuals all
within the same wild populations in Oregon. Belly coloration
is certainly not a definative trait. However, I think the
best single characteristic for defining true Oregon
red-spotted garters is that they should be void of the side stripes.

>>I am interested in learning more about this. I have seen alleged concinnus with the lateral striping but I have not been able to find any fitchi with red on their heads like this. All of the information I have found states that fitchi do not have red heads, that this is a definitive trait. I will continue searching and comparing. Where are your red headed Valleys originating? Perhaps it is a more area specific morph. I am also not aware of any places where intergradations are known to occur.
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>>Randy Hallman

My full red head valley garter was from central Idaho, Valley County to be exact. My female from that area had babies with varying amounts of red on the head, but all had red.

That's a good looking Garter. I love that high contrast dorsal stripe to go along with the red.

Steve

Let me get this straight... no more tetrataenia, infernalis are now concinnus, concinnus are still concinnus? Is there mtDNA support for this?

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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

If you are referring to my post you misread it. The San Francisco subspecies is still recognized as such (and protected) but a couple of the subspecific names have been shuffled. The California Red-Sided and Oregon Red-Spotted were combined itno a single subspecies as well. This was recommended because the original type specimen for the San Franscisco subspecies was given the designation infernalis when first described. The California Red-Sided and the Oregon Red-Spotted are now collectively T s concinnus. The designation tetrataenia is no longer used for any of the T sirtalis subspecies. This new breakdown of subspecies is in academic use but it is not universally accepted as of yet and may not ever become so.
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Randy Hallman

I'd have to look where Springfield, Oregon is on a map to give
you a guess. They look more like California Redsided or Valley garters
than they do Oregon Redspotted. If Springfield is in southwestern
Oregon then I would say California Redsided. If Springfield is
in Eastern, Northeastern or northcentral Oregon I would say Valley.

>>I dropped by a friends property in Springfield, Oregon while on vacation last week.. She offered to take me out to herp her property, so I told her i'd love some Red Spot garters, as they are among my favorites.. We managed to find a single pair during the hottest part of the day.. I was pretty certain they were Oregon Red Spots, until I saw some photos of some Red Sideds that looked exactly like them... Which do you think they are?
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>>They both shed on the trip home. The female is very large, around 3ft and already took a jumbo f/t mouse. Male is much much smaller(natureally), around 2ft, but is much nicer looking...
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>>Brienne Earnst
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>>DeviantArt Photo Gallery
>>DarkWave Exotics
>>
>>Keeping Green Tree Pythons, Scrub Pythons, Garter Snake ssp, Western Hognose, Asian Ratsnakes, and more...

This is a Valley Garter or possible integrade with the redspot from
the Columbia River Gorge. Pure looking redspots (ie. no side stripes)
have been found within the same area.

Here is another Valley garter that was found about 12 feet away
from the one above. This one lacks so much red on the head.

>>I'd have to look where Springfield, Oregon is on a map to give
>>you a guess. They look more like California Redsided or Valley garters
>>than they do Oregon Redspotted. If Springfield is in southwestern
>>Oregon then I would say California Redsided. If Springfield is
>>in Eastern, Northeastern or northcentral Oregon I would say Valley.
>>
>>>>I dropped by a friends property in Springfield, Oregon while on vacation last week.. She offered to take me out to herp her property, so I told her i'd love some Red Spot garters, as they are among my favorites.. We managed to find a single pair during the hottest part of the day.. I was pretty certain they were Oregon Red Spots, until I saw some photos of some Red Sideds that looked exactly like them... Which do you think they are?
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>>>>They both shed on the trip home. The female is very large, around 3ft and already took a jumbo f/t mouse. Male is much much smaller(natureally), around 2ft, but is much nicer looking...
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>>>>Female
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>>>>Male
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>>>>Brienne Earnst
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>>>>DeviantArt Photo Gallery
>>>>DarkWave Exotics
>>>>
>>>>Keeping Green Tree Pythons, Scrub Pythons, Garter Snake ssp, Western Hognose, Asian Ratsnakes, and more...

I am interested in what criteria you are using to distinguish between concinnus and fitchi.

Stebbins writes that the Oregon Red-Spotted subspecies may or may not have lateral stripes. In fact he states that the lateral stripe is only occasionally or sometimes missing. Of the Valley Garter he states the tops of their heads are black, brown, or dark grey. The other difference cited between the two subspecies is the color of the ventrals.

Red-Spotted: Black ground color extends onto belly.

Valley: Black on belly usually confined to the tips of the ventrals

This is all consistent with all the other material I have found. I have not found anything contradictory nor have I found anything more in depth. The relationship between the Calif Red-Sided, the Red-Spotted, and the Valley Garter is interesting but a bit hazy. For that matter I wonder how you’d distinguish a Valley from a Common Red-Sided if no location data was available since the latter also has a dark head. Do you know of any herpetologists or taxonomists that have written in greater and more precise detail on distinguishing concinnus from fitchi?

Stebbins is a good general field guide but his field guide is not the best for keying out some subspecies. That is partly why he has dropped so many subspecies in his newest edition. As his field guide has been revised over the years, so have the subspecies descriptions and our knowledge of the snakes across a wide area. Many of the old subspecies descriptions don't hold true for many species across their ranges. It is best to go to the species desriptions published in scientific journals to get more detailed key information. That is where Stebbins is getting his information from. It would be nice if Stebbins provided a better bibliography than he has in the past to aid those who wish to find out more in knowing where to look.

Many herpetologists have examined and re-examined the western Sirtalis group including Fitch, Tanner, Rossman, Ford and Seigel. I don't have time at the moment to look for the references for you. Perhaps in the winter I will post a more detailed explanation.

>>I am interested in what criteria you are using to distinguish between concinnus and fitchi.
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>>Stebbins writes that the Oregon Red-Spotted subspecies may or may not have lateral stripes. In fact he states that the lateral stripe is only occasionally or sometimes missing. Of the Valley Garter he states the tops of their heads are black, brown, or dark grey. The other difference cited between the two subspecies is the color of the ventrals.
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>>Red-Spotted: Black ground color extends onto belly.
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>>Valley: Black on belly usually confined to the tips of the ventrals
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>>This is all consistent with all the other material I have found. I have not found anything contradictory nor have I found anything more in depth. The relationship between the Calif Red-Sided, the Red-Spotted, and the Valley Garter is interesting but a bit hazy. For that matter I wonder how you’d distinguish a Valley from a Common Red-Sided if no location data was available since the latter also has a dark head. Do you know of any herpetologists or taxonomists that have written in greater and more precise detail on distinguishing concinnus from fitchi?

I used Stebbins as the example because he is generally the starting point. His field guide is excellent but certainly not the last word in the finer points of taxonomy. He did publish a more academically thorough and detailed book on western herps but it is quite old at this point. It is my understanding that he dropped many subspecies because new methodologies have yet to be applied to them. My point is that everything I have seen is consistent with Stebbins and I have found nothing that contradicts him. Are there any credible academic sources or researchers who have published definitive criteria in differentiating between the Red-Spotted and Valley Garters using the presence or absence of the lateral stripe? Rossman, Ford and Seigel have placed the Calif Red-Sided and the Red-Spotted under the same subspecies but left fitchi intact. They also seem to indicate the red head is indicative of concinnus. They state that if fitchi have any red at all on the head it would only be on the temporals. They ignore the lateral stripe as a criterion.

Hallo,
I followed your dicussion with much interest because I have nearly the same open question regarding my garter, caught southwest from vancouver city, BC. According to this area (see Rossmann) it should be a Th. sirtalis pickeringii. But the typical morphol. criteria are missing. The white/yellow lateral stripes have more or less connection to the gray-white ventral, a clear wide dorsal stripe and nearly a red head, like the pictues before from the female caught in oregon.
I suppose it´s a Valley Garter?

I tryed to attache a picture but until know I do not know how to manage this.

correction to my message before: the snake orig. south east(!)vancouver c.

Peter,
Here is your garter.

It definately looks most like a valley garter to me based upon the side stripes and its locality. Its locality is right where pickeringii and fitchi come togeather. This is a good example of what I was talking about above. I believe that these western sirtalis are not defined very well and that it is useless to categorize them by arbitrary things like head color and amount of black touching the ventrals because they show a wide degree of variation accross their range. I believe that geography is the only real divider of this species.

Here is a Valley Garter from Utah with a typical amount of red on its head and I have seen some with more. This specimen doesn't have much black touching its ventrals but I have seen specimens from Utah some of which are from the same locality as the snake below that do.

From what I have seen of most of the common garters from the northern California cost, I would say they "look" more closely related to fitchi than they do concinnus. So I don't understand why some herpetologists would want to merge infernalis and concinnus into one subspecies based on looks. Herpetologist Alan St. John who has seen and photographed tons of common garters in the northwest says this about concinnus in his book Reptiles of the Northwest 2002,
"The most typical examples are found in Oregon's Willamette Valley, whereas those from the surrounding areas often have some characteristics of the fitchi subspecies." In his range map he also does not connect the ranges of concinnus with infernalis.
I would like to research how many specimens were used and how diverse in geography and range those specimens were which Rossman, etal used to come to their conclusions. I am not as familiar with their work as I am the work of other herpetologists who have studied Western Sirtalis.

Brian

>>Hallo,
>>I followed your dicussion with much interest because I have nearly the same open question regarding my garter, caught southwest from vancouver city, BC. According to this area (see Rossmann) it should be a Th. sirtalis pickeringii. But the typical morphol. criteria are missing. The white/yellow lateral stripes have more or less connection to the gray-white ventral, a clear wide dorsal stripe and nearly a red head, like the pictues before from the female caught in oregon.
>>I suppose it´s a Valley Garter?
>>
>>I tryed to attache a picture but until know I do not know how to manage this.

Hi,
Whatever it is, put me down on your waiting list for offspring! (:
I breed killifish, with them when we have a situation like this we would add Springfield OR to the name and only breed this collection with smilar ones caught in the same location preferably on the same day, preserving the strain until someone clears up the nomenclature. So that is what I would do until further notice, if they are still working on sorting this out.
A friend kept a pair of wild caught northwesterns that had 3 batches of babies with 4 distinctly different morphs in each batch. Think I will leave the nomenclature debate up to others. Hope the DNA technology figures it out, because looks alone can be deceiving.
Kate B
Oly WA