Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I grew up in Florida and have lived most of my life in the southeast. I have seen and caught a few snakes that were clearly "black rat snakes". They are solid black above with a white chin. As hatchlings they have patterns with saddles.

Lately I have been thinking of getting several snakes with a "black" theme: black kings, black milks, black pines, indigos (don't quibble about whether those are actually black, it is my project).

Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.

I am looking for a pair or 2.2 of solid black as adults black rat snakes.

But also, I suppose I am asking the difference in black vs. gray rats which I thought I knew until now when this strange project came to me.

Can anyone help educate me?

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>>Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.
>>

Some black rats retain traces of patterns to varying degrees and of course not all black rats are true black.. some are distinctly brownish in color. Whether it has to do with natural cross breeding with grays or other relatives in the various geographical ranges I don't know.
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PHWyvern

Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.

Unfortunately misrepresentation is rampant on the classifieds these days. The current trendy catch phrase is "PURE not crosses." This should be an obvious warning sign to steer clear as the lineage is most likely suspect.

Sounds like you know what you want and that's a good thing. Keep searching and you will eventually find a knowledgeable breeder that has the stock you seek. Ken

>>Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.
>>
>>Unfortunately misrepresentation is rampant on the classifieds these days. The current trendy catch phrase is "PURE not crosses." This should be an obvious warning sign to steer clear as the lineage is most likely suspect.
>>
>>Sounds like you know what you want and that's a good thing. Keep searching and you will eventually find a knowledgeable breeder that has the stock you seek. Ken

Obviously not all black rats are solid black.
A black rat being sold that shows patterning does not imediately mean that snake is being misrepresented.
Black rats will show patterning. Some will have to be inspected a lot more closely but it is there. There are regions where they turn to an almost solid black and there are many regions where patterning is much more noticeable. There is no proof that these are crosses or even speculation for that matter, they just show more patterning.
That is like my area. The black rats show quite a bit of patterning and the range of the grey rat doesn't really reach this area to signify interbredation.
Just different looks for different locals.
Basically what I'm trying to say is not all black rats are solid black and not all black rats with distinct patterning are black/grey interbreds and misrepresented.
sorry
just my 2 cents

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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>>Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.
>>

You have to look for solid black, black rats, specifically. "Black Rat" is just a common name for Pantherophis o. obsoletus. When I lived in Ohio I used to find ones that were almost all black with little pattern in se. OH, but then I'd find ones that were grayish/black with a pattern in sw. OH and further west. Whether they are crossing with the gray ratsnake, or they are just variations caused by changing environment, is up to interpretation. I believe the change in geography and climate causes the variation.

It is also well known that some of the blackest, black rats can be found along the East Coast, like in Virginia and Maryland. There may be a west to east cline in the coloration. But I believe there are also some fully black ones from further west too, like maybe in Missouri and/or other states.

There has been posts in the recent past about the color of black rats, I think someone from VA posted recently. Do a search of the archives and you might come up with more info. You might also contact some breeders through the forums, as to who has the blackest, black rats. I think Dwight Good works with those

Good luck and don't forget there's other black snakes out there too (black racer and black hognose come to mind).

TC

The black rat snake is a highly variable snake, and this has alot to do with the locale of the snakes.

I grew up in MO and there the black rats are jet black as adults. Some still have a slight pattern with some red or white bleeding up between the side scales from the belly.

Now you get over here in KY were I currently reside, and the black rats maintain pattern and coloration througout their entire life. The snakes up in IL, IN, OH and down in TN have the same basic look, but each have their own locale specific look.

Many believe this is due to the range overlaps of the black rat and the gray rat. If you look at a range map for both snakes, you will see where the two ranges have a very broad overlap. And this happens right in the states I mentioned above.

What you are looking for are a pair of locale specific snakes that come from the range where there is no natural intergradation of the two snakes. I would suggest looking for a black rat whose lineage is from NE portion of the states or from the midwest, MO, NE OK, Iowa, and maybe NW IN.

Here are a few pics for you....

This one is a KY locale black rat, 4 years old and over 6'. He is not what comes to mind when most people think of black rat, however, this is pretty representative of what you will find here in KY!! Although he does have a higher amount of yellow than most.

Now here is a black rat snake from NW MO. This is the male, and probably more representative of what you consider to be a black rat....Jet black

And the female. They both came from the exact same locale, and she has more white bleeding up on her sides than the male does, however, she has gotten darker since this pic was taken. Notice the high amount of reds inbetween her side scales. This is a common occurance of most black rat snakes that are jet black. Most have lots of reds between the scales, and isnt really noticeable until after a feed or when they are coiled up. I have found specimens that have very high amounts of reds on the belly and bleeding up the sides. These, IMHO, are very attractive.

I will hopefully be breeding these two next year.

Hope this helps in clariying some misconceptions for you.
Brian

>>I grew up in Florida and have lived most of my life in the southeast. I have seen and caught a few snakes that were clearly "black rat snakes". They are solid black above with a white chin. As hatchlings they have patterns with saddles.
>>
>>Lately I have been thinking of getting several snakes with a "black" theme: black kings, black milks, black pines, indigos (don't quibble about whether those are actually black, it is my project).
>>
>>Anyway, I see "black rats" advertised in the classifieds. When I look them up or ask to see pictures of the parents, they look like gray rats to me. They still have saddles clearly visible.
>>
>>I am looking for a pair or 2.2 of solid black as adults black rat snakes.
>>
>>But also, I suppose I am asking the difference in black vs. gray rats which I thought I knew until now when this strange project came to me.
>>
>>Can anyone help educate me?

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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

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>>
>> Now here is a black rat snake from NW MO. This is the male, and probably more representative of what you consider to be a black rat....Jet black
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In So. MD we have jet black - some shiny, some dull in appearance, but definitely black. Many pictures I have seen of black rats try to represent them as being a brown-black color. All the wild ones here that I've played with bleed white between the scales. Occasionally some are found with a small amount of yellow on the ventral scales only and it is a dingy/dirty color at that. I really like that red-yellow bleed through on those photos of yours - adds some interesting texture. Is it possible there could be natural corn snake influence helping to bring it out in some of the black rats in those areas?

Below is Leslie, a cb gray rat snake, and Levi, a wc black rat snake:
.

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PHWyvern

I really appreciate the comments sent by all. I have a better handle on geographic variation, and also a plan to find the best stock.
If anybody knows a link to breeders who have the Va. or Md. black rats, I'd appreciate it, but of course I will continue to look through the classifieds.

Many pictures I have seen of black rats try to represent them as being a brown-black color.

These could be a misrepresentation, but you must also take into account the locale of the animal in question. Here in KY, a jet black specimen may only be found in the extreme western portion of KY, and hard to come by.

All the wild ones here that I've played with bleed white between the scales. Occasionally some are found with a small amount of yellow on the ventral scales only and it is a dingy/dirty color at that. I really like that red-yellow bleed through on those photos of yours - adds some interesting texture.

The black rats in MO can be found without the reds as well, and have the same black/white look you are describing. It seems different locales have more red influence than others. I have found them with extreme bright red/black checkered bellies and varying into shades of orange! I came across a huge male once that had a white chin/throat, that quickly transitioned into the bright red/black pattern. He was about as mean as they come!!

Is it possible there could be natural corn snake influence helping to bring it out in some of the black rats in those areas?

No, the corn snake does not range into MO, and I have never seen a natural intergrade between the two. Doesnt mean it may not happen, but I have never seen such. I have seen man made hybrids and they mostly look look like either a normal corn or a normal black rat, and the 2nd gen looks like a dark ugly corn. I have never seen a corn display the reds between the scales as the black rats do MO.

Brian

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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Dwight Good in Ky. & Michael Jolleff (spelling?) out of Ohio both work with a solid strain of black rat. I'm not sure if they are locality specific, but I have seen pics of Dwights back when he had his website up, and they were solid jet glossy black. I also know a breeder here in Virginia that will be working with locality specific black rats that will be solid black. Crazy fool reptiles. If you need there email let me know and I will send it to you.

Steve

Here is a pic of one of Dwight Good's Jet Black babies from two years ago. At 2 years old, he is a bit small, but you can see that he doesn't have the typical saddles you see in other black ratsnakes. If you are interested, I could get you a nice shot of a Md strain that is even more black in color. Let me know. Hope you enjoy!

Dewey