Reptile & Amphibian Forums

2005 Amel Goini...

John Lassiter

and is the hottest new morph in a long time. Congrats!

Thanks Rainer....
I just hope my possible het male is an actual het since I got two amel females.....

Here he is.

John Lassiter

Oh man I thought you got males for some reason. Smart move on your part (IMO). You can still get a male amel next season and not lose any time on your projected breeding year.

Tell your wife this is a business decision

"Tell your wife this is a business decision"

LOL.....I am very proud to say that my wife enjoys this hobby almost as much as I, but it is still hard to justify 100 snakes in the snake room.....HAHAHAHAHA
She thinks it is just an addiction I have.

Yep, I thought getting the females this year would be a good idea.
I think I can get a male next year and "catch him up"......
A patternless albino would be cool, eh?
How about a striped, blaze phase or high red amelanistic goini????
Sounds like a fun project to me.

John Lassiter

John

I recieved your email but I cannot return my emails as my computer outlook explorer is malfunctioning.

That is okay...send it when you can....
John

Those are awesome, John! Love the pattern on the het!
Todd Hughes

Thanks Todd....when you coming over to see them?.....Neighbor...
John

Did the amel gene come from floridana? Or was californiae or holbrooki used? The hets still need more outcrossing to look "goini" IMHO. Ken

Where have YOU been. You missed all the posts on these newly revealed goini morph.

JFYI you can scroll down to see some history on these. There are several posts on this morph that was kept under wraps until last week.

I have some crossed fake ones that are lav. floridana x goini and have seen many other hybrid type cross goini.

Just wondering what you think does not loot like goini to you? What is it about them that look crossed to you? Are you familiar with the Aplachicolas?

If you are familiar with the crosses they look a lot more exagerated in color. These are the real deal. What people have a hard time believeing is not everyone who finds a snake and takes it out of the wild documents it as if it is the next big thing. This morph appeared in a clutch that a WC laid but the mother had already been sold off. I also saw that recently a few people commented on someone elses snake and immediately referred to the shape of the head and neck to explain why they thought it looked like a cross. I posted a pic of mine....specifically a good shot of the head and neck no one had anything to say about it. This is a case of....well since I don't know about it can't be true....not meaning you Ken, just in general. Just like a certain veteran herper who now frequents the board is talked down too by people with half his experience....with the same, well I never heard of him....type of thing going on. The history is all there a few posts down, and people need to realize the guy who caught the original snake that produced this line is not involved in the commercial aspects of the hobby,,,,,so in a sense he was not under the impression this would be a big deal. It is too me, and to some of my friends, and others will enjoy these snakes in their collections some day. One thing this snake is NOT, is a man made cross. Tom Stevens

1994 – 1.1 adults captured in Apalachicola, FL . The pair were kept and bred. It is not known if the male caught with the female was the first male to breed with her. The female laid a clutch of eggs in late May. The adult pair was sold to Glades Herp before the eggs hatched. When the eggs hatched, there was 1 albino baby.

1997 – The albino was bred to 2 wild caught females from the same locale. A heater malfunction that winter killed the albino and several of it’s offspring. The remaining offspring were held back and raised up.

2000 – Two pairs of the albino’s offspring were bred. Out of the first clutch there were 2 albinos, full term, dead in the
eggs. The other clutch produced only normals. I was given 1.2 babies from the clutch that produced the full term albinos.

2003 – I bred the 1.2 Goini. I got 2 female albinos from 1 clutch, but the other female produced normals.

2004 – 1 of the albino females that I produced in 2003 got out of her cage and managed to get into a breeder cage of rats. I found her dead, chewed from head to tail. I was sent the last remaining female from ‘00. I produced 6 more albino babies from the 1.1 hets and 1 possible het. Two of them refused to feed. Of the remaining 4 Albinos from ’04, I have 3.1.

2005 – Bred the 1.2 hets this year. As of today, I have produced 5 albinos this year and still have a few eggs left to hatch.

This was written by Chip and edited by Tom......
John Lassiter

No offense to you or the others that are keeping these but this history is not really what I would be interested in. This history is just a long line of failed keeping of a snake. There is nothing about the actual orignis. Who caught it is being kept under wraps for what ever reason though that is part of the relevant history as well as where it was caught and what happened to the animals after glades got them. The original animals where never tracked down and that seems kinda odd. I understand the animals that glades moves but who the animals are sold to is kept if it was shipped. Was this ever checked out??

As far as the het pictured that is in queastion I would not have guessed goini if I saw it on a table at a show. I wouldn't know what it was and would have to ask. This whole thing is difficult to talk about because there is a group of you that are in this that believe in these animals and take everything as a attack on your persons. It is not but the history you guys have needs to be fleshed out a bit. I can take that same history and have the first year as a albino cali crossed to a goini and the subsequent years as back crosses to goini. I am not saying this is what happened but rather pointing out the fault of your history.

The finder is very important as well since it is their word at the end of the day that is the backbone of this subject. If they are a nobody fine but the name may be known as a small time liar as well. There are a ton in this hobby. Just look at the albino alterna that is being queastioned and dismissed because of who has it. If you guys want people to take you seriously then come up with the actual history and not this listing of poor husbandry and bad luck. Again no offense to any of you I infact have respect for all involved but this is a big deal and the treatment of it is kinda sad.

Just my .02

Later Jason

Jason

The history and bad luck that cannot be helped. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. It is what it is.
As far as the $ value is concerned and whether they will hold up to scrutiny I think time will tell. Many of the people who supported the validity of the albino easterns have seen their value come down to less than $100. Those same people that supported the amel easterns are the same ones that question the history of the amel goini. So I think it is ironic that their support did NOTHING for the value ($) of the easterns. Matter of fact you can't hardly give one away.

Either way, the people who have the amel goini are happy and those that don't are not.

Your involved here and you skirted the issue. Who collected them and where?? Who is this person who found four in a matter of a year or two in the same local??
Later Jason

Your involved here and you skirted the issue.

How am I skirting any issues? I don't know who collected them and I don't own any.

Again I think it is ironic how some of you want to point to the actual person who found something when the snakes many of you have in your own collections are being misrepresented by people you trust. How do i know? Because they told me on two occasions with their own mouths. Yet I don't say anything and I don't rain on your parades. I just keep it to myslef and smile.

Here are a couple old sayings:

Whatever rocks your boat.
Live and let live.
Insert foot into mouth.
The last laugh is on you.

Rainer
Sorry I was under the impression that you where one of the owners of this group. If you are not then forgive me it just seemed like you were the way you jump in on all these threads and act defensively.

as far as your sayings whatever
Later Jason

Amen Rainer.......LOL
I am out to please myself not everyone else....
As I stated before...If you don't like it, don't buy one..
My 2 cents,
John Lassiter

Albino Easterns suffer from the same thing that the Albino "Goini" does and thats lack of info. I questioned the albino Eastern right from the get go because nobody had any history. Terry Dunham who had a breeding group researched the hell out of it and came up with very little solid info and zero names and some sketchy locales. So to say that Albino Easterns are cheap regardless of some peoples support is erroneous. They are cheap because they lack good history. I will say something though I do know of a real Albino Eastern that will hit the market soon (within the next 2 years or so). It has what Toms snakes and the other Albino Easten Kings dont have and thats a solid story, a known locale, a reputable collector as well as names, dates etc... and they look like they are supposed to. I have no investement in the project at all so dont think of this as a marketing ploy as Ive said I dont really care much for Albino's.

Keith
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This is my point Keith. What makes this collector you speak of a reputable collector? What if I don't know him....I have to take your word for it..... Tom Stevens

The difference is when these come out you will know his name as he is the collector and the breeder. If you wanted you could even get references. Many breeders offer references for this reason. When you neglect to give the collectors name it raises a flag and even more so when you say oh well you wouldnt know him. Well maybe I wont but I bet someone does.

Keith
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Keith, the difference is this particular guy had no interest in the commercial aspect of the hobby. They thought little of it...I have tried to make that point clear many times. Chip did not even have much interest...perhaps that is the wrong word...maybe he did not have much faith that people would find the snake as appealing as other king morphs. He is known as a good guy here in TX and he seems content with that. When I warned him that he needed a history of this snake to be taken seriously he said he could care less what people thought. After I bugged the hell out of him for a while he contacted his buddy who collected the founding stock and the history was put to paper. Like I said Keith,.,,,,if just one person wants to rain on this parade they can and will, and I am not gonna take that sitting down. I understand what you guys are saying,,,,but unfortunately things are not as easy as you want them to be. Put things in a different perspective and think about how many people were sitting on Ball Python morphs without realizing the potential they held. This is similar. A few guys had something unique pop out and said....he, check it out...cool! It was I who said I know guys who would love this snake and brought others into the picture. If not Chip would have sold them locally and enjoyed them himself. Apparently my friends and I saw the potential to bring a cool new project into the picture and people can;t wait to prove me wrong. Now it is a freakin witch hunt, and I am not hanging out this guy to be burned. If he decides he is OK with it....fine, you will get your wish, if not...too bad. Things do not always work out the way we want them too. They did for me, as I got the snake to the people who wanted them. Tom Stevens

Tom

Here is where I see things differently. Just because someone is not interested in money or fame doesnt mean they dont just do stuff just to do it. You assume thats this project cant be "unreal" because the guys involved seeimgly had no desire to make $. Well I have no deire to make money with my breedings but I still breed my snakes anyway. You get it ? Money isnt always the driving force for doing something Tom. Some folks just breed this to that for no other reason then to see what it looks like or casue they are bored or it was a careless accident etc... Now you say you trust your buddy Chip and I believe you but Chip isnt the one you ultimatley have to trust is it ? You say Chip trusts "the Collector" so then so do you. Wow I guess you are different then most because for me trust has to be earned and nobody ever earned any trust simply because someone else trusted them. I mean for that type of trust to work it would have to have blood involved like my Father trusts this guy so he must be okay. I dont afford that type of trust very lightly Tom as trust is very impotant to me, especially once you have kids. Does that mean you trust the guys the collector knows because he trusts them his buddies youve never met? Where does the line of trust end? What if I knoew the collector and he trusted me totally wouldnt that be a kick in the pants lol Seems silly logic Tom sorry I dont mean to be insulting but its odd.

Keith
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we're just now hearing about this. First nobody wants to say who found it, then nobody even mentions it on here until after ten years. Some say it was found in the town of Apalachicola and others say the ANF (the town of Apal. is south of the ANF on the other side of the Apal. river). A pair was found and they don't know if the pair bred or if the female was gravid? I can only assume they're saying the person found the pair at the same time. If so, I would then assume the pair was found under some sort of cover. If they were found on the road or elsewhere, why would they think the pair already bred? Also, anyone who's been to Apalachicola and the ANF knows there just isn't a whole lot of cover in both areas and the chance of finding a pair isn't completely impossible...very unlikely but I will say it is possible. But the odds of finding a pair and having an albino pop out from this population of kingsnakes is just way too unlikely. Let those that want to believe it's true go ahead and do so. Some of us have doubts and question it based on what's presented and what we know. I'm not saying it's pure or not but with the information given and the history of "goini", these people are only making it more questionable.

Sean, I am trying to be nice about this, but seriously....I have no choice but to be defensive. What are you going to do? Put the guy who collected them in a Google Search under Goini finders? I just wrote above Glades herp frequently vends at local shows in Texas, and they do NOT keep a data base of peoples names who they sell too. I take it people are assuming Glades sold the snake via mail order....we do not know that, and it is ridiculous to ask now. I can not say he remember that Goini from 10 years ago? I keep telling you not everyone documents thier finds as something to be remembered. This is a common field herper who kept a gravid snake to be surprised by the lone Amel. He did not even think much of it, and as I have said this snake was just a trinket to be kept within a group of friends....it was not intended to make it too the hobby and be the next big thing and as the history states it almost didn't. You have no idea what it is like to be responsible for having something unique that others may want.....I do,namely my White Sided Speckled King. I did not post pics for over 6 months once I owned it, and I barely even touched the snake because I was so paranoid if anything happened to it I would be remembered as the guy who helped bring a killer project to its demise. In case you did not know I like integrades and Hybrids...and have no shame. If this snake was either I would gladly represent it as so....but it is not so I don't. I can think of 5 other projects[besides some of my own] that are waiting to be unveiled in the next few years and when they do I hope they do not have to listen to people try to ruin someone elses acomplishments in the hobby. I was well aware that people like you would have to defend the Goini as if we were trying for whatever reason to fool the public....and all I can do is share the info I have which is not much. What can I do? It is what it is. There's a group of people on here who think they're experts but can't even agree on what a Goini is and how to prove it is what it is. And I am not about to give away the locale, or state whether or not it came from a protected part of property....you should understand that much. The fake Goini morphs are actually prettier animals and are obviously hybrids. And for the well you can breed it back 10 times to create one that looks like a real one BS....I have to say, wow! really? no kidding? If it is about credibility which it seems to be I am telling you, I am defending this snake with my rep, which is golden....so please believe what you want to believe but do not start a campaign like the X files with the truth is out there nonsense. I have been telling the truth and that's all there is too it. What makes you think I am not a Kingsnake fanatic? I am not all that much different than you....and the dollar amount on this new morph should help it be more believeable. Compare to some of the newer Milk snake morphs and you should know where I am going with this. When the few of us eventually produce offspring this same history will be explained to anyone interested. They can believe and buy or not believe and not buy. On a forum where people are more inclined to not believe something....this attitude is not surprising. It is not just you, but as we have seen cliques form and then the board turns to nothing but fighting. I know who my friends are, and if you want to be one of them or be my enemy it is up to you. You can disagree, and still be OK in my book. But do not disrespect 10 years of work from someon who never cared to bring this snake to the hobby. I am the one who did that, so don't make problems for me
Tom Stevens

I hear ya man
Later Jason

I have to agree with Sean on this.

I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I must personally doubt the origin, based upon the shear odds. Others can form their own opinions.

Original amels came into the breeding circle on races like cal-kings, speckled kings, eastern kings only after thousands had been collected from the wild.

It was the great work of a few credible breeders (FR, Frank Groves, etc., etc.) that made amels go from something you would be lucky to even see in your lifetime, to something that is a normal occurrence at breeder expos.

The fact that the original WC pair has vanished off the face of the earth is suspect, or that they seem not have produced an amel for someone who bought them from Glades Herp.

As far as the odds of even finding a pair of blotched kings, between 1971 and 1977, I examined about 86 DOR and live blotched kings in the field and only found 2 pairs together (< 50 meters apart) in all that time.
Is it all possible? Of course. Is it probable??????

Like I said, the guy who caught the original snakes is a no name...he does not care for the internet or commercial reptile keeping in any way shape or form. With all the animals going in and out of Glades Herp do you really think they could find the owner of the snake after the fact they sold it? I live in Texas and have seen them here vending at a local show several times in the past two years....do you think they keep a record of snakes of all the people who buy from them? I am sorry but that is just silly. What if they did find the person they sold it too? What then....hey can we have that back? Again that is not likely. You're talking about a snake whose variability rivals Mexicana complex....but people can look at it and pull snake names out of a hat? Looks part Splendida blah blah blah. I will say it again....not everyone who collects snakes from the field documents the details....and furthermore even if I do know I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE. It will only draw attention to the locale and have people go tearing it up and I hate to hear about that stuff. Believe what you want to believe. The snakes we are showing are descendants of wild caughts from appalachicola....and that's that Tom Stevens

The albino "Limburg" rosy locale was never reveled by Randy Limburg for the same reason . People would tear the area up looking for more.

Tom

What is fishy is you assume that nobody will know this guy. How can you possibly know that ? Is it that the collector already has a bad rep? Im sure you will take this post by me and be defensive or attack me and thats fine but dont expect anyone to take the half story of the origin of these snakes as gospel. Personaly I think the more banded Albino looks the part but that other one sure doesnt. Also you say Goini are variable and yes they are but they are variable within limits. They are not as variable as Thayeri in fact I challenge you to show me a pic of a Goini that reseambles the pattern of the one questionable looking (In my opinion that is) Albino. It doesnt have to exact but onbe that looks close. Ive never ever seen a Goini with thin crossbars ever and thats what that one albino looks to have as well as the one you posted last year. Have any pics of that animal ? Whats it look like now ? You mentioned before that it was going thru odd pattern change. Again Tom lets keep this civil as Im not attacking you but trying to engage in denate and conversation.

Keith
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I never said take it as Gospel, I just said this is all I can offer. My het from 03 was a butt ugly patternless baby, looked like a crappy Nigra[no disrespect to Phil Peak as I do love those snakes] but low and behold after 9 months color and pattern appeared and it looks like a NICE eastern....go figure. The 04 I posted is aberrant....i would not refer to the pattern as cross bars. I actually almost bought an unrelated non het Goini from Chip that was similar in aberrancy...but didn't have the cash. I just bought one from Mark Bell and do I ever regrest not taking pics of all he had for sale. EVERY single one was different than the next,,,,but 5 of the 6 were males so I only bought a lone female. All were at least somewhat aberrant. And like mine.....as hatchlings were nothing to write home over. Now I am in a position to question you over some similar things Keith, but since you had a freakout as if I had commited an atrocity last time I won't, but if something came form somewhere ti should not have,,,,it is not in the best interest of mine to go telling people about it. I am not saying it did or did not come from anywhere specific, there's more reasons to not do that than there is to do so, why can;'t you or Sean give me some slack? I have plenty of money makers in my collection. Womas, High end Hondos, White Sided Specks and up and coming Brooksi. This snake is just for fun,,,,and I think many others will enjoy it as well. I have received emails from people who loved the pics, and I know you guys have received them saying this and that about me. I am not happy about this but what can you do, the world is an imperfect place. In closing why should I believe if I release the collectors name....and you discover him to be legit....that you would go public with that info? I am much more likely to believe you would go out of your way to make trouble for me....and it would take a small miracle for me to believe otherwise. Tom Stevens

Tom

In regards to my snakes and I dont know why they come up as they arent even what we are talking about but I didnt collect a single one myself. I will always list my snakes as the locale I believe them to be or as relayed to me. If I dont believe the person then I wont post them as such or even buy them for that matter. I have had people ask me are you sure these are Nj Easterns and Ive always answered no as I didnt collect them myself but I believe them to be NJ's. Sounds like BS maybe but Ive never gotten on here and said check out these NJ Easterns they are 100% the real deal. Ive never personally broken any laws or asked anybody to break laws to get me snakes. I own very few WC animals in fact maybe 4 of my 22 snakes are WC. Now the reason I freaked out was you insuated I broke the law and thats just not cool. You just dont do that on a public forum especially knowing the Fish and Game take your animals then figure out what laws if any you broke later. Again to make it clear for you I cant say with 100% confidence that any of my Easterns are the locale they are advertised as. I beleive they are what they are because if I didnt I wouldnt own them. I dont keep and breed snakes for money but simply because I love snakes. Dont get me wrong if I can make some extra jing to buy more snakes or get rodents Im all for it but my main thing is I just love them. Anybody who knows me knows that Im a stickler for details if you are selling St. Mary's co Eastern Kings I will ask a ton of questions and even research the person as much as I can. If Im not satisfied then I wont buy them. I welcome questions on my stock hell I like answering questions and talking Kings. I will overload you with info its just the way I operate. So when I say I have NJ Eastern Kings It means I believe them to be so and by my reputation you can either take them or leave them. I dont lie, I dont break the law and I dont steal so please never ever imply I do those things indirectly or otherwise...but I digress.

Tom you made the claim the "Real Deal" so to back that up you need to offer up some real info. I dont know why you insuate I will go out of my way to make trouble for you. You made our little war personal first long ago by attacking me and tellimg me I drive people away etc... Thats where it all started. If youi look back at my first posts about your Goini I was never rude nor did I insult you but started a debate. You went on the attack and that was wrong. You were so convinced Sean and I and a few others would slam you that you reacted too strongly. Sean nor I or anyone else called yo a liar or a law breaker or anything else but thats what you saw thru you preconcieved notions. Yes it turmed ugly but like they say on the playground you started it lol. I dont like fueding its worthless and takes too much energy.I will however defend myself and raise questions where I see something worth raising questions on. Im not part of a herd that just ohhh and ahhhhs because I care about the little things that maybe others dont. Im into the natural history of animals I read research papers and field notes. I like reading about long dead herpetologist. I like the old Herp books in fact I like books period, I bet I have over 200 Herp books from 1910 all the way up until present time. When I hear that someone who keeps snakes or has an interest in them and hasnt read Carl Kauffeld's Snakes and Snake Hunting I want to scream and buy them a copy and make em read it lol. In fact I have done just that as when I find that book in a second hand store I always pick it up and end up giving it away (in fact I have a copy for anyone who hasnt read the book, drop me an email). Hell Tom Ill send it to you if you havent read it or dont own a copy, its the greatest herp book of them all IMHO. Some folks dont care about that stuff as they feel a snakes natural habitat is a 20 long aqaurium but Im not that way. Anyway its late Im ranting and Im on percoset due to a bad tooth lol so who knows what the hell Im saying HA HA HA HA.

Keith
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I was trying to make a point Keith. It doesn't matter to me if 100 people say the guys who bred stock you now own are legit and everything they say is true. What if I say I don't believe it? Just an example, I get the impression some of the names you often speak of are stand up guys. It is unfortunate for me and the others involved, including Chip that he is not a well known guy yet, and niether is the guy who collected them. Some guys mount a lunker Bass on thier wall, others release them. Not every snake guy makes a big stink out of something that others like me will. Did you ever think that maybe they realized they would have these problems from the moment they knew the founding stock was lost and they had to start the history the way they did? No one on here is willing to put themselves in our shoes. It is all about, well I know the history of my stuff....and it is way mroe detailed than this so everyone should believe it. Once again,,,,what if I say I do not believe anyone elses stories? This is exactly what is going to happen if I reveal the collectors name and any more details so I feel it is useless to go on and on about it but I am waiting to hear from Chip and after I do I will make up my mind what I want to do. I will tell people what I know who are interested and they can make up thier own minds. Tom Stevens

Keith,
I find myself having to post a reply to you again. Not stalking you this time.....HAHAHAHA

What I want to know is......How many of those Eastern kings that you have in your collection did you actually get out in the field and find yourself?
Most of your collection is from other people who found snakes in the wild and bred them and sold offspring.....I am just guessing as I do not know if you collected them yourself or not.
What I am getting at is this......You trust the breeder you got them from, correct? Tom and I believe the history of the Amel Goini and trust the breeder.

Another thing is this.......Explain to me Sean, Jason or Keith what exactly can you see in these snakes that makes you think they are not 100% Goini? If all you guys are going on is the fact that you don't believe the history of the snake than you can flatter yourselves as it is your opinion......If you guys are going on looks alone then theres some hipocracy. Snakes cannot be identified by looks alone....Looks are merely an opinionistic interpretation of the person viewing said specimen.

Please tell me some facts as to why you guys think these are "hybrid crosses"........Band counts are not good enough as that is just visual pattern......

John Lassiter

If you look at the het pictured above and think Goini then I have nothing to offer. To me it doesn't look the part. With this group of snakes the looks of them is what we have. I am going with the examples I have seen. I may not have seen all the looks that can be expressed by this group but when one I have not seen pops up in a new morph then I ask queastions. If those queastions can not be answered then it is not my problem. If my queastions make you angry and you can give no answers then there is something in what I ask. When I look at your other snakes I think of you as a great breeder with a great rep so I am asking out of respect. If you where not who you are I would not even bother.
Later Jason

If my queastions make you angry and you can give no answers then there is something in what I ask. When I look at your other snakes I think of you as a great breeder with a great rep so I am asking out of respect. If you where not who you are I would not even bother.

Jason,
Your questions certainly do not make me angry.....LOL
And I appreciate your concern, but I am on the boat that believe in these as the real deal until they are proven not to be pure.
We have a hard time even explaining what a "goini" is....How can we say these are not goini?
John Lassiter

OK Father Lassiter church is in session
Will all the true believers stand up and ask no queastions. Oh and if any are asked of you dodge them and make the people asking to have faith or prove that our god doesn't exist

How many times can a queastion be ignored by one group of guys.
Do you even know who collected these snakes???????

I guess no answer are to be found here

Later

Now....Where in the heck did that come from?
Are you bi polar?

and....queastions is spelled questions.

To answer you QUESTION.....We do know who collected them.
TTFN (ta ta for now),
John

It came from you asking me to believe in something without any proof of its truth.
It came from you avoiding a question over and over.
It came from you asking me to prove your animal is not true from a picture of it you posted.
Oh and if you are going to correct someone's grammar, don't mess up yours in the following line...

To answer you QUESTION.....
Try your
Later Jason

First off 'question' is the correct spelling of the word.

And sorry if you are so up tight...I am not and will not lose any more sleep over this as I am off to bed.
I have nothing at all against you and I do respect you. With that being said I apologize if anything you read in my posts sounded as if I were hostile or upset or angry....as I am not.
TTYL man,
John Lassiter

Cool

Tom,
I am not trying to make trouble for you but rather asking the queastions that came to mind. I have animals that I can not say the origins with certainty. That said if something did pop up I would sell it as such. Also I am not queastioning your rep or belief in this project. Rather I am queastioning why you believe in this project. You say the collector is a no name, but that means on here. I know quite a few collectors from North Florida and some I trust and others I don't. Almost none of the guys who I know are known on here. That said your whole project relies on a animal someone else collected and sold to a secondary person who then sold them to you. Is that right?? If so you are on rocky ground as the first guy to bring this project out. In your position you need to at least say the collectors name. You are asking us to believe in a line that you got third person and are the first person to bring it out. Its not your rep but the collectors. If you won't name him then you have already killed this project before it has started. In the end if they are real I like the normals more. I also think they don't photo well. In person they are likely more impressive but the pics make them look washed out. Offer what you want for info but realize the results of this when you do. Good Luck with this and all your projects.
LaTER jASON

Again....
A lot of the people who post here seem to think that this is it when it comes to the Herp industry. Do you guys know how many breeders there are that don't even own a computer? I wonder how it was 30 years ago?
If you think the project is over before it even gets started that is just YOUR opinion.....What the hell are you going to do? Go tell the world your opinion? How many are going to listen to the nonbelievers and how many will listen to those of us that believe?

Everyone's got an opinion....I have yet to hear or see any facts...
John Lassiter

Dude the facts are yours to give. Right now this is like relgion. The non believers will be dealt with. Will I go tell my opinon? No to who? I am askng you for facts and you get all hostile. Why??? If asking what a guys name is get you going like this then the problem is not mine. If you are going to be this guarded about the actual history of the snakes then who do you think is going to buy a albino "GOINI". Yes people who don't care will buy them but in my experience it is more fulfilling to sell or even give snakes to guys who really care about them. Do as you will if this your attitude.
Later jason

Not hostile over hear....Maybe getting tired though........HAHA
TTYL Jason....this is going in the wrong direction.
Peace,
John Lassiter

Jason, I realize this will mean little to you, but the collector is a good friend of Chip, who is the guy that took on the project on finally got it off the ground. Chip is more of a Boide guy who lived in FL until hurricaine Andrew hit. Chip used to herp with the collector and is very familiar with Florida and quite possibly knows a few hot spots others do not. I am going to speak with Chip...again....and no promises, but if I feel any additional info will help people to lighten up I will post it. However he is already frustrated that so much drama surrounds his cool project. We, meaning myself Chip and the few others who have these understand it would be easier if we had more details, but I am not sure there is much more to come up with. Keep in mind if just ONE person on here feels the collector is not a stand up guy the project will face the same drama as the Blaze. I do not want that. I posted pics for opinions...it was automatically harrased. I will mention again, I own Hybrids and know Hybrid people. It is VERY useful to discuss things like this with them as most have seen it all and are great at identification of whats what. I have been sending pics around for well over a year and most felt this snake was the real deal. Others were unsure. Since this boils down to a dollar value issue this is not a high dollar snake, and there's no worries for us involved. It is just a cool project. Morph or not, Goini are not high on many peoples lists....but we who own the morph all intend to work with non morph Goini too. We just like the snake...and others will too. Some may discover how cool they are after seeing the Amel...so any which way I think this is a good project. Tom Stevens

Finally a response with something to it. You don't know the collector your self is what I got out of it. That is fine if you are up front about it. When you hide details it is a problem. I am not trying to kill your project. All I want is one or two queastions answered. If you don't have a answer say so, don't ask queastions in response. Find out the answers. That you don't have them and defend this project the way you do is a little weird. Also that you have been involved with this for over a year and are still asking queastions is also strange. You are in the drivers seat with this
Later jason

Jason, do you seriously think I care what you or anyone finds strange about all of this? Chip is a friend of mine. He says the guy who collected the snakes is a good friend of his. When he went to tell me his name I cut him off and said you know what? I do not want to know...., simply because I trust Chip. I asked "opinions" for over a year. Simply what do you think about this? The response was damn that looks like the real deal, and even....the more I look at that pic the more I believe it is a true Goini and not a man made cross. I am in the drivers seat....I always have been. When I first told Chip I had friends who would love to work with these his reply was "really???". As I have said....this is not exactly a snake that demand can not be met for. He was happy to know others shared his interest in them and if you knew Chip you'd know he actually prefers the non Amels. The bottom line is an innocent snake lovers rep could be destroyed because a few people refuse to believe something they thought did not exist actually does. And all this nonsense over the "look". Have you ever noticed that hets can look different than normals? How about Brandons killer white het Axanthics? Or how about the unique look of the het for Peanut Butters? Chip respects his friends, and knows regardless of what the truth is...if people refuse to believe his friends rep could be hurt. For a guy who basically handed this project over to a friend, namely Chip, that would be a lousy way to say thank you....by unleashing a bunch of people who don't even know him to be harassing him over something he was lucky enough to discover...and even still did NOT try to blow it up to be the next big thing in the hobby. Please tell me you somewhat understand any of this Tom Stevens

To answer you QUESTION.....We do know who collected them.
TTFN (ta ta for now),
John

John said that above before you said in this reply that you told Chip to not tell you who the collector was. I am not trying to pick this thing apart, and in fact I am getting pretty bored with this, but come on guys even if this is the real deal having two differant answers for one queastion is not cool.

As far as I understand Tom is the one close to Chip. Chip is the one who knows the collector. John is getting his info on these animals from Tom. Is this right?? I hope not but if it is then there are more problems here.

AS far as not wanting to ruin a guys rep who is a small time collector.... Ok lets look at that. This guy is not a guy anybody knows. He is from Florida but nobody online knows him. He doesn't come online and can care less for us computer herpers. Somehow we are going to ruin his life and his rep even though he cares little for us and likely knows none of us. How??? How are we going to ruin a guys life or rep if he is a good guy?? How do you see this happening. You say that nobody on here will even know this guy so in turn you are saying that he interacts with nobody on here. So, how then, can a group of people who have nothing to do with somebody affect him.

You can't have it both ways man. You can't tell us this guy is off the radar but if we look at him we will destroy him. So to answer your queastion no I don't get it.

I hope you understand it is not our place to disprove you. It is your place to prove yourself. I still have not made up my mind on this. All I am asking for is the basic info on the history of these animals and it is like pulling teeth. I don't know why this is such a suprise to you that the collectors info is needed. That is in fact the first piece of this whole structure to be laid down. No other US morph has ever got going in modern times without the collector being looked at.

Later jason

Later Jason

Jason...I too talk to Chip too and I do not get all my info just from Tom....LOL
When I typed "we" know who collected them I was referring to the fact that Chip and a few others know.......Tom and I have not even asked for a name...But it is known...
And....I am glad you are getting bored with this as I am too.....LOL

John Lassiter

here we go again you say
All I am asking for is the basic info on the history of these animals and it is like pulling teeth
I gave the basic information. I have explained things over and over. If you're bored then stop posting. I do not care who believes what. People do not want to discuss the history of ALL morphs on a daily basis....just mine and it is pissing me off. Who are you to lay down the rules for what makes something believeable or not? A few say they have problems believing this n that.....well actually I am sure there are more problems than simply that and shows with the childish rants that began within minutes of me posting the first pics. But I am the psycho who once again...needs to do this n that. Forget it. I will do what I want when I want and if people don't like it tough.
Tom Stevens

Tom
If me asking the same question about 10 times in a row with you ignoreing it while you contradict one of the other guys who is in on this pisses you off then it is not me who has the problem. What morph do you want to talk about the 40 year old albino corn morph. Is that safer for you. Come on man. Your inability to handle this like a man has lost you a lot of respect.

I am done

If you won't name the collector then its a fake

Happy????

Jason

And you are it, so now you have a problem

.

Oh no!.....Jason thinks it is a fake still....off to the freezer I go.....Get over it man......
One or three lonely opinionated souls on this forum is not gonna change anything for me.....
Who the hell do you think you guys are anyway? OH...the snake police.....LOL
Again get over it....
Like I said many times before if you do not like them or believe them to be what they are DO NOT BUY ONE...they are not for you...
As of now I am not posting anything else about these....i will though post pics from time to time...You guys can bash them then cause this is over.....
John

That thing is unreal Beauty!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Toby....And thanks Tom and Rainer for explaining these again.....
John Lassiter

>>2005 Amel Goini...
>>
>>John Lassiter
>>

Damn i wish those were availible in the uk, you wouldnt send that exquisite lovely to me would you.... lol...

EXQUISITE is an understatement john.

Paul..

.
-----
Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

Thanks Paul.....You can get some in about a year or so......Chip will have some next year and Tom Stevens may.....
Mine will go in 2007.....Potentially.
John Lassiter

Das a nice looking King ! I think it has some albino Speckled in it though. Jus' dont look right but it is a really killer king. How much are you gunna to sell the kids for ?

Jack Blackstone

No Holbrooki or Splendida or Nigra or Getula getula or Floridana or Brooksi......PURE Goini / Meansi / blotched lowland king....Apalachicola King....Not a cross.
Not sure what to sell the kids for yet....Ask me in about a year and a half........Damn that is a long time off.....LOL
John Lassiter

I know of at least a dozen poeple that believe that these things are the real deal......
I have only heard from 4 or 5 who think they "crossed" with something, but they just can't figure it out......LOL

We gave the history of these leaving out the names and you guys are making the assumption that these are hybrids of some sort by that information or lack there of???????
What facts do you guys have to say they are not pure??? A visual picture, that is all?
John Lassiter

Personally I do not find not wanting to reveal a locality fishy. I don't find the collecter not wanting to reveal their name fishy. I am a little skeptikal that anyone who likes snakes enough to know how to collect goini in numbers would not know an albino would be worth money. I figured that out when I was 12 years old and saw my first price list with normal Cal Kings $25 and albinos $400 or something like that.
Barring the lack of names and locality all we have are the appearance of the snakes. Personally I haven't seen that many wild goini to ever judge but I think it would go a long way to post pics of every single animal that is alive today and post any pics of the ones that have died if they are available. I'm sure you know since intergrades can take after one type or the other seeing the full spectrum of what there is and has been could tell us alot.
I certainly couldn't form an opinion off of seeing just the 3 or 4 snakes that have been shown.

Hey Aaron, I never said he collected them in numbers...but I honestly don't know about that. When Chip lived in Florida he did have a few hot spots and has shown me some nice pics of WC Kings. This was before the age of the digi camera, but I have seen the photo album. Some people can spend huge amounts of time looking for snakes and find very few, others can find them even when they're not looking...and here we have a biased opinion from someone[not you] who thinks because they do not find many that I guess no one can. The history presented to me by a friend was good enough for me. I knew it would not be for everyone but there's not much to gain or lose so I just can't get too worked up over it....trying not too anyway Tom Stevens

By in numbers I guess I just meant compared to what others seem to have found in recent years. I would be suprised if there are not a few spots out there were several goini could be flipped in a day or several could be cruised in a year and sometimes a local can accidentally or by luck happen upon these sorts of places. The story is not that far fetched to me.
I just don't have the knowledge to form an opinion because goini have never been "my thing".