Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,
I'm awaiting one of my clutches to hatch. I've had some problems with incubation this year but seem to have things leveling off (guessing because of the extreme humidity). Anyways, I went to check a my mandarin clutch (hatching at the time) and just peeked in the one hondo clutch. To my surprise a hondo was completely out. I looked at the other eggs and no pipping. The egg it came out of had all the yolk and good stuff still inside, no absorbtion. I picked up the little guy to see the cord still attached and a "caving in" underbelly. It doesn't even look like this guy should be alive. It is moving around just fine. Any reason to why it would evacuate the egg so quickly? Since then the umbilical cord has been shed and it is moving around, like normal. I witnessed it drinking too. I will most likely freeze it, but I'm curious to see if it will survive too. The other eggs are still not pipped. I'll try to get pics to those that may be interested.

Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated

thanks
mgl

or do you mean you would freeze it if it dies?
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phflame

if it turns out to contain a deformity, which at first glance it was looking like, I wouldn't want to keep it alive. Humane reasons and genetic pool reasons too. You can tell if an animal needs to be put down or not. Do you have any other ideas pertaining to euthanizing of animals aside from freezing, just curious?

thanks
mgl

freezing, didn't you? I included the link below. And there was a small thread about humane killing using CO2 on general snakes (I think). Personally I have never had to put down a snake yet, they all have the courtesy to die on their own.
Humane Euthanasia

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phflame

of it as I didn't before since I do not venture to the Indigo Forum. Valid points are made for both sides. It is difficult to make a hypothesis except on speculation. Most individuals don't have access to CO2 or barbituates. Barbituates are only useful if you know what you are doing & are controlled substances. What dose do you give? It varies on weight, what if you don't give the proper amount. Possibly the anesthetic you are giving may not be suitable for reptiles. More studies need to be done that are reptile based and excessively repeated for data.

I'm not entirely convinced either on when or when not to put an animal down. You say you've never put one down. Did you not put one down because you didn't know how or waited to see if it would recover? Not saying you've done this, but if an animal has a deformity or obvious problem...then why prolong its suffering? Again, subjectivity is involved when determining what deformity/oddity is painful.

Cost issues will arise too. I would think that, whether we like it or not, when you are dealing with hundreds or hatchlings it would be too costly to take all problem animals to the vet. That is not most humane thinking, but it is what goes on more often then not.

I agree there are better methods to euthanize an animal. I also think in SOP needs to be implemented for this procedure that is geared towards reptiles.

Most likely, suprsinigly to you, I've only put down 2 snakes and both were through barbituates from one of the best reptile vets in the country.

Honestly, when I originally wrote "freezing it" I was clumping all methods under that terminology considering most people aren't too familiar with some of the concepts involved.

mgl

Kind of a stupid statement but dry ice is CO2 and you can get it from a lot of grocery stores. I have found some people do not know this so I am mostly saying it for everybody who doesn't know as I am sure you do with you time in the hobby.
Later Jason

to mention that same point but just avoided it in case issues were brought up about that form remedy....excellent point though, much appreciated

mgl

I would assume that the eggs were kept to moist and the yolk came back out of the under belly. I got a beautiful abberant hypo like that from norm damm; yolk came back out of the early hatching clutch and they had only eaten 1 deer mouse each, besides mine had eaten a pinkie. It's doing fine and is beautiful. It may live. I hope you don't mean freeze it alive. Keep it and care for it, could end up a fine snake.
-Sean

at first glance it looked very ill. I wasn't going to keep it alive for humane reasons. Aside from carbon dioxide or euthosol, freezing is the most available, humane method I could think of. I'm waiting it out however. If it makes it, I'm keeping it for my projects because it has a lot of potential wrt genetics.

thanks
mgl

>>I would assume that the eggs were kept to moist and the yolk came back out of the under belly. I got a beautiful abberant hypo like that from norm damm; yolk came back out of the early hatching clutch and they had only eaten 1 deer mouse each, besides mine had eaten a pinkie. It's doing fine and is beautiful. It may live. I hope you don't mean freeze it alive. Keep it and care for it, could end up a fine snake.
>> -Sean

Sean,

Can you elaborate? Yolk's what is in the egg and is absorbed (and utilized) by the developing embryo. Once it's "in" the snake, absorbed, it's not there as yolk to come back out. So perhaps you're describing a situation in which the belly slit had not sealed and the vessel thru which the yolk is absorbed was still connected? But you also seem to be describing something that happened after some animals had already eaten, possibly (because of having eaten) had already shed? Which suggests they'd have been 10 days old or older, when something came back out of them? Out thru a belly slit that re-opened? Or...?

Or maybe i misread your post. But it'd be great if you'd clarify.

thanks
terry

"So perhaps you're describing a situation in which the belly slit had not sealed and the vessel thru which the yolk is absorbed was still connected"

That's basically what I was told. When I bought this snake from Norm Damm at the Philidelphia breeders expo, he had told me that the whole clutch's belly slits hadn't been sealed and that yolk-matter came out. I have a feeling he was juts using a different choice of words and saying that the vessel had been still connected and not all yolk was absorbed? I can't be certain, but that's what I assumed. He said the clutch had been kept too wet.
-Sean