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I have to agree with Sean on this.

As far as the odds of even finding a pair of blotched kings, between 1971 and 1977, I examined about 86 DOR and live blotched kings in the field and only found 2 pairs together (< 50 meters apart) in all that time.
Is it all possible? Of course. Is it probable??????

Bill, just curious if you have any pics of those kings you found. What became of the live ones you came across? If you'd rather answer this in an email, just let me know. I'd be interested in talking to you sometime more about this population of kings.

Sean

Here' we go again eh Sean? You really don't know when to quit do you? Now this guy said
The fact that the original WC pair has vanished off the face of the earth is suspect, or that they seem not have produced an amel for someone who bought them from Glades Herp.

WHO SAID THAT GLADES SOLD BOTH SNAKES FROM THAT PAIR TO THE SAME PERSON?????

Did I not just tell you this guy has not found any Goini at this spot in 8 years? You are gonna ride this day after day until Daytona next year and then wonder why people want to speak to you in person..... Tom Stevens

Tom,

No I'm not going to continue on with this. In the long thread below you'll notice I responded only once. Why? Because you've already proven the questionability of your snake. Like you and others stated before, some are happy with what they have and others still doubt it. Let's just leave it at that. I don't know you personally Tom and I figured you were a good guy from previous posts I've seen on here but your defensiveness and threats have made me lose any respect for you.

Sean

A threat is....I am going to do this n that to you.....I have threatened no one. As for respect? Let's just say that goes both ways. I don't have any for you either. I AM respecting the wishes of the founder of this stock. There's more to the story which is best left untold and that's all there is too it. Why you can't figure out what I mean is obvious....you know EXACTLY what I mean but you would rather cause trouble. I wanted to bring another cool snake for morph people to mess around with and I have,,,,but you and a few others are accusational and I am not supposed to take it personally? But none of you can prove that it is anything but Goini....yet it easier to believe it is not so you have an upper hand on it. Within minutes of me posting the pic you started your BS.....not even trying to compare it too anything, and scale counts mean nothing, and pattern and color mean nothing...or everything... I took the time to look into this snake for well over a year before I got mine, I am lucky to have it, and you can't expect me to sit back and relax while you start another crusade to ruin it like you did with the Blaze, so shut your mouth. Tom Stevens

There are many errors in your logic. First, in my experience, you cannot base populations and occurances in snakes from road hunting. Road hunting only tells you a particular snake(of your interest) occurs in an area. Those of us who understand snake populations(in only the slighest way) understand just how rarely snakes cross roads.

You really should withhold your judgement about what others can find, until you find what the snakes are really doing.

Think about this, many people and many zoos held reptiles in captivity, they wrote papers about this and that. These reptiles often did not achieve life events, that is, they did not grow up, become reproductive and reproduce, live a certain period in this condition, then grow old and die. A normal life sequence. They did not achieve generations in captivity. If you compare their papers or information/understanding to those who allowed their captives to achieve life events, you would have two entirely different understandings of the same snake.

Now compare the information you achieved from road hunting to what I look for and find. I do not consider finding a snake as success, I use that snake to find life events. That is, I hold off judgement of what a snake is or does, until I find colonies, pairs, nesting, neonates, sheds, scent markers, etc. You know, all the things a normal snake population has to do to exsist.

Then to take it farther, I still hold off judgement until I see several colonies of this, and from several different ranges or habitats. Even then, I hold off judgement because after doing the above, I have learned they do not have to do one thing, or live in one particular clean cut way.

Why I say all this is, you are making judgements of lack of information, not from real information. You must understand the limitations of your information.

With this in mind, why do you think someone cannot find what you cannot find, particularly if they look or approach it in a different way. Or heck, just get lucky, which surely happens. Truth be told, many of the things I see, were started from investigating a lucky piece of evidence.

Do you understand that. Yes, I called it evidence not facts. Every thing you see, needs further investigation, not taken as, end all facts. With that in mind, I am sure if you investigated further, you would see just how limiting your information is. I know that happened and still happens to me/us, as we investigate farther. Good luck FR

Hey Frank, I appreciate your veiw on this topic, but too make this easier for some to understand let me make a short list of the facts
1. The collectors age may be a factor, as some older guys look at things a lot different than a lot of younger guys do.
2. I stated the fact he has not found any more Goini there in 8 years
3. People who have what they feel to be a hot spot do not like reveal the locale as it only means others will go there and ruin it, he found plenty of other snakes besides the few Goini there
4. The history shows mistakes were made and snakes were lost, the morph came close to not making into the hobby
5. As you mentioned..luck...this was dumb luck as the guy was not even snake hunting the day he found them
6. Not every snake in the hobby got there without bending a rule or two
7. Who is too say the collector does not know things others wish they did know about finding snakes? He was not road cruising I can tell you that.
8. Colonies....maybe there are a few areas where these snakes are more abundant, and he happened to come across one
9. Not everyone is all about the internet. I myself only bought a digital camera two years ago. Some people keep their finds to themselves or simply do not make as big a deal of it as others would.
10. Many people realize that other Kings have been way more so mass produced and therefor easier to believe when a new morph pops up. However the bottom line is most morphs are produced from one single snake...again luck has to be a part of the picture.
I am in a position where people are demanding information I was asked to keep to myself. I know it would be easier to spill the beans but I won't. I researched the snakes history and people involved and I believe what I was told. What angers me is people admit there is not much known about these snakes as compared to other Kings,,,, but they're experts on what can and can not be. My White Sided Speckled Kings grandmother was in a collection for a good 15 years before it was reproduced, not everyone is out to seek fame and fortune in the world of snakes. They're just pets, and animals to enjoy. I am going to like working with these snakes...as I feel they have a lot too offer. It is a shame some will go out of their way to influence others to believe what they believe....which is not much. Tom Stevens

You do not need to defend yourself, you said your piece and I take your word for it. You do not have to devulge anything. There is no need.

First, there are people who won't/don't/will not believe you, if they were standing next to the fella when he found them. So you trying to convince them is a waste of time and only makes you look bad.

Secondly, albinos are mutants(non-successful mutation), even if naturally occuring, to argue a mutant vs. a mutant, is sort of silly. Who gives a flying tomato, if they appear to be what you say they are, then they are. About yours having a different pattern, isn't that typicial of goini, they have no consistant pattern.

Now if I were to guess, that fella found them early in the year, maybe mid-march to early april, at the latest, maybe even feb. He most likely was looking for something else(feeder frogs or lizards) and was very surprised to see one under something, muchless two. How am I doing?

The point is, someone found the founders of all these morphs, it happens.

The fact that is does happen and no one has proof to disproof it, they really do not have a leg to stand on. Do they have to believe it, no, most don't want to believe anything for their own personal reasons(wrong or right). IS there a high percentage that this could happen, no, but there was not a high percentage of any abberants, mutants, albinos of any kind being found, but they were. Cool beans FR

I know what you're saying FR. I was told by people to not say anything but I figured I would give a basic history. There are a few people with "names" in the biz who would have my back on this but I am not gonna go there. I have a lot of cool things in my collection including a few projects very few if any others are working on. So I have my family, friends and snakes to keep me from smashing things when in a bad mood. I have been trying to get some new pics of Kings to post but I was busy with a cool clutch of Hondurans I hatched out and need to get some Gopher pics next. I will try to get back to normal soon and be more of a plain ol post a pic type of guy, and try to think of some cool things to discuss....but man this is a busy time of year for me. Hard to keep up with things. Thanks for writing, your comments are always appreciated. Tom Stevens

Tom, I have seen some of the stuff going on in the laboratory and can only say, WOW! You DO have a lot of cool stuff and I would just concentrate on keeping your snakes on the right track. Grow 'em up and produce 'em and i will be there to oooh and aaah and I want another female MBK as she ate a rat pup, pushed the pin out and is out on a walkabout. I tried to lure her in again and she learned to sneak in, got another rat pup and was out before bedcheck! She is smart and will be fat as Mom! LOL!
Todd Hughes

If it is I am glad to see it is growing like a weed. My second clutch is at about week 6. I look forward to seeing those little buggers. Now you need some PITS! Tom Stevens

Once again FR your genius is showing lol. Sean cut and pasted someone else reply and thats what is in bold.

Keith
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I thought if I put his post in bold, people would know it was a quote I was replying to. Next time I'll surround it in quotation marks.

You were a man of your word, but I guess I was wrong about that too.

But then what would I expect from someone who goes out of their way to e-mail me and cuse at me. Your a child. Go away, FR

Sorry its the boy scout in me helping the disadvantaged and his retard posse'

Keith
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""Sorry its the boy scout in me helping the disadvantaged and his retard posse'

Keith""

I can see it now Keith Hillson, the BOY scout leading his "legion of weenies" into Cyberbattle against FR and his retard posse......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now who's name calling? No one but you.........

John

such wisdom is spewed through the piehole of the infamous cheesehead from wisconsin,,,,,,,,,or not
XOXO,,,,,,,,thomas davis

If it’s okay for this guy to continue your little discussion off line (via email) why didn’t you just email him directly instead of dredging the whole thing back up? What you are doing Sean goes beyond simply asking questions, it harassment.

Whoa folks, Slow down.
I apologize to all here for continuing to flog a dead horse. I really didn’t mean to stir the pot again.

· Sean, I have good news and bad news in pics... Mostly bad.
I'll email you.

· Tom, I do apologize if I offended your personal integrity. My two key words here were my “opinion” and “probability”.
Could it be that the credibility gap is with the collector?
Can we see pics of the parents?
With all the designer breeding, hybrid mixing, and the market value that is now involved, did you not expect some doubting Thomas’s here?

· Frank (FR), you are absolutely right that no proof is apparent, positive or negative, so all is circumstantial. It’s true that other field collectors could very well find what we cannot, and do. It’s very true that there is much more to the animal populations than what is crossing roads, or under tin.
I guess I’m a little suspect because the captive breeding trade of 1980s, 90s, and 2000s have given the impression to some folks that amel cal-kings and corns, are a dime a dozen in the field, You are definitely one the most field sensitive, and best collectors, I’ve ever had the pleasure of herping with, and how many amels have you observed in the field? Again, I’m just talking probabilities, not possibilities,
(You’re not going to make me grab marbles from your hand now, are you, Frank?)

Whoa folks, Slow down.
I apologize to all here for continuing to flog a dead horse. I really didn’t mean to stir the pot again.

· Sean, I have good news and bad news in pics... Mostly bad.
I'll email you.

· Tom, I do apologize if I offended your personal integrity. My two key words here were my “opinion” and “probability”.
Can we see pics of the parents?
With all the designer breeding, hybrid mixing, and the market value that is now involved, did you not expect some doubting Thomas’s here?

· Frank (FR), you are absolutely right that no proof is apparent, positive or negative, so all is circumstantial. It’s true that other field collectors could very well find what we cannot, and do.
It’s very true that there is much more to the animal populations than what is crossing roads, or under tin.
I guess I’m a little callused because the captive breeding trade of 1980s, 90s, and 2000s have given the impression to some folks that amel cal-kings and corns are a dime a dozen in the field.
You are definitely one the most field sensitive, and best collectors, I’ve ever had the pleasure of herping with, and how many amels have you observed in the field? Again, I’m just talking probabilities, not possibilities,
(You’re not going to make me grab marbles from your hand now, are you, Frank?)
Regards, Bill McGighan

email me when you can.

It's OK Bill, but I appreciate your coming back to reply again. I posted some older specimens recently including a patternless het adult. I mentioned not everyone is into computers and what not and only fairly recently has Chip got himself a good digi cam. The older pics were enormous and I confess I do not know how to resize them...I probably deleted those. I can see what I can do about getting new pics of adults but what you probably don't realize is this. If I had H.G. Wells Time Machine and went back to the beginning of this story and travelled through the history with the doubters somehow a few people would still say this n that on how it is not what I say it is. So since I started talking about this snake....and in the beginning I said give it a chance and look at it since people are so fast to assume certain snakes are a cross by one look or another, yet people looked...and did not explain anything....just jumped down my throat trying to make me give out info I was asked to keep to myself. I have no choice but to vent my frustration....as the few who know me personally can defend me and say not only would I never lie about something like this, I would also never put my name in the middle of something to jeapordise my on reputation unless I was certain of the authenticity of the animal in question. I have quite a few interesting projects, including some potential good money makers. I do not have anything to benefit from this particular snake except a thnk you from a few good friends...and that is fine with me. It is a shame some want to give us a hard time for this as regardless of purity...it will be a 100 dollar snake in no time...and a 50 dollar snake soon after that....so people should lighten up. They don't have to buy them if they don't want too. More people are seeing this side of the hobby,,,,and it is obvious if they're lucky enough to come up with something new and unique that they can expect to be attacked by people who insist it just can't be. Tom Stevens

I understand your frustration.
We'll look forward to the pics.

something that caught my eye is you were told to keep certain information to yourself. Now if i was a person that was anal about local and intergrades that would throw up flags. If someone buys a baby from you and wants that info will you give it to them so they can answer there customers questions when they ask or are they going to be in the dark. Now i'm not saying this is what happened but the only reason i could think of that would make someone want to keep it quiet is if they were illeagally collected. I'm not pointing fingers or anything i'm just trying to figure this out. No attack is intended here either , just trying to close a book or chapter what ever it may be lol. Paul

Hey Paul, I personally could care less about locale, and with Goini I barely see it relevant, and the fact the snakes appear to be Goini and were collected where Goini are found[which we all know is not a very large area]is all I can offer anyone interested in these. In other words no other info will be offered to people simply because they are the ones buying them. I am not keeping it to those only involved in working with them, I have told the few who got them this year no more than I told anyone else. There's so much to read since this came to the forum...and I do not know how much you checked out yourself. The fact is I showed other snakes related to these 05s to people who are knowledgeable about Goini. We all agreed they appear to be Goini, and after investigating this as far as I can, I can say with confidence this is not a man made cross. The guy who produced these has been friends with the collector for 22 years, and he is not someone who would create a man made snake for kicks or cash. He has a collection he likes and a job that pays way more than any kingsnake breeder or collector can make. I had a few people over my house when we had several of these snakes too look at, and also other unrelated animals to compare them too and no one was suspicious of them being hybrids. Some of us like Hybrids, and some are not into them at all. No one could find anything about the snakes to make us think they were. Some people are assuming someon called me and said "hey I have amel goini!' and I said "cool i want them!". It was not like that. I was interested in these for well over a year before any were available. I found out all I can about them and the people involved and that is all I can do. The info I can not offer would bail me out of this drama but I can not go against the wishes of people involved. Goini are constantly under debate as it is, and this Amel is no exception. When asked to prove what a Goini is, how they came to be, and what makes them different, even people who think they know more than the average keeper can not give a good explanation. These are a cool new morph that originated from a WC animal. The offspring range throughout all looks Goini can produce. You can not breed any 2 given Kings and create all these looks which happen to all be part of Goini variants. Yet I have to explain over n over....as if some guy collected some Floridana or Easterns and they spat out blotched and patternless kings. Those would probably be worth more than the Goini, which we priced on the low end of the scale considering it is a new morph on the market. I don't know what else to say. I have a good rep, and this is making me furious to the point where I say things that give people the wrong impression about me....which sucks. However since it was I who brought the attention to the snake, I have to deal with it. From day one we have said like it or don't like it, buy it or don't buy it. It is what it is and that's all I can say. No one is willing to put themselves in my shoes,,,,many may have passed on this snake,,,,,not me, I like them and know others will too
Tom Stevens

I have read some on this topic but lately i have just been to busy to come on here. The past 3 weeks have been hell lol. Heres a question i honestly don't know , was the parents normal looking het for amel , or was the wc parents amel. Also are the parents or ( originals ) , pics posted online at all and if not do you think you can get some posted. I would like to see how the parents look . Thanks alot and in my book your a good guy Paul

Hey Paul, the original female was a normal. It was caught with another normal male, not in the act of copulation but they were together under the same piece of debris. I may go to the home of the guy who is producing them now in a few weeks. If I do I am going to take a lot of pics. Thanks Tom Stevens

did you look . If so i wrote NP. whitch means no post lol.