Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a new hog that seems very sick. When I saw him this morning he had his mouth open. I opened the cage and he seemed fine, but them started kind of hopping around. I thought it was him just putting on a show, but he is even worse now. He has been jerking around all day and now is basically curled up in a ball and just shaking. Does anyone know why this may be happening or what I can do? The only thing I have done is use Provent-A-Mite, and I followed the directions. None of my otyher snakes are having an trouble.

Please let me know what I can do.

Thanks Jeremy
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0.1 Amel Motley Corn (Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 6yrs, Porter 1.5yr)

Sounds like you may have overdosed him with the PAM. The active ingredient is Permethrin, which is nothing more than a nerve agent. Overdose symptoms are tremors, incoordination and increased aggressive behavior. If it is indeed due to overdose of PAM, then the only thing you can do is wait it out. You can try washing your snake off with soap and water and changing out the bedding, but this may not help as the permethrin has probably already done the damage.

Permethrin binds with the nerve receptors and causes an overstimulation and can lead to death which comes from shut down of the nervous system. It also causes liver damage and can lead to sterility.

Symptoms can last up to 3 days, but I have seen more snakes die than survive after an overdose.

I could be totally wrong, and I hope I am, so keep us posted on how your little guy does.
Brian

>>I have a new hog that seems very sick. When I saw him this morning he had his mouth open. I opened the cage and he seemed fine, but them started kind of hopping around. I thought it was him just putting on a show, but he is even worse now. He has been jerking around all day and now is basically curled up in a ball and just shaking. Does anyone know why this may be happening or what I can do? The only thing I have done is use Provent-A-Mite, and I followed the directions. None of my otyher snakes are having an trouble.
>>
>>Please let me know what I can do.
>>
>>Thanks Jeremy
>>-----
>>0.1 Amel Motley Corn (Cosmo '03)
>>0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
>>1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
>>0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
>>1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
>>1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 6yrs, Porter 1.5yr)

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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Thanks Brian

I just don't see how it could have happened. I was really paranoid about this, so I let it dry for hours and came in and used a small fan to try and ventilate every 15-20 minutes. I even used a little less since it was just a hatchling.

I got a response in the health forum that said it takes a lot to OD on PAM. One of the things I mentioned to him was that this snake always seemded a little off. He almost was always on his side. He just was always"clumsy" and not quick to right himself. This is my first hog and I was told it was no big deal.

I guess we will just see what happens. I called the vet and it is $100 to get in before the tests. I just can't see doing that right now. I really feel bad for him and even considered putting him down, but I guess I will ride it out and see what happens. I already soaked him and changed the bedding.

Thanks for the response and I will let you know what happens.

Jeremy

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0.1 Amel Motley Corn (Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 6yrs, Porter 1.5yr)

Jeremy
Well if the hog was acting funny and listing when you got it, then it could very well be that something was wrong with it genenticaly or heathwise.
I have a hatchling hog and it acts just like any other hatchling I have ever had, so I would say that something was wrong to begin with. However, I wouldnt recommend using PAM on a hatchling anyways, as it would be very easy to poison one with permethrin.

Keep us posted on how the little guy is doing.
Brian
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RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Please remove the snake from any objects that could have been exposed to the Provent a mite immediately. It is obvious that the hognose is suffering from neurological effects of the chemical. I hope that if you remove it immediately and provide it with uncontaminated air, it may recover.

I have to warn you that I will be delivering some harsh words. Before treating your pets with any chemicals, you should be aware of the very possible side effects. And when you first noticed any deviation from normal behavior, you should have taken action by removing the animal from exposure to the chemical.

I can't say what the prognosis of the snake is, especially after continued exposure to the chemical after symptoms appeared. Even if the prevent a mite is not the root cause, I highly recommend taking the snake to the veterinarian ASAP. This represents the first report of toxinosis in hognoses that I have seen, and despite getting berated by me, your post will go a long way towards educating others and making them aware of the side effects of provent a mite. I will be forwarding this posts to other knowledgeable people in the hopes of them providing a remedy.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Thanks for the reply.

If I did anything to kill my snake, then by all means you are not being harsh. I already put in fresh bedding, but after your post I did move him into his feeding container with paper towel and an extra water dish that has not been in his cage.

I had read many different things about PAM before using it and did not see anything about this reaction. I guess I should have been alerted more by seeing him act different this morning, but it didn't hit me like it did tonight.

I would like to thank you and appreciate the response. I wish I was in a position to take him to the vet, but I can not. I apologize if that offends anyone, as it makes me sick to think about it.

Jeremy
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0.1 Amel Motley Corn (Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 6yrs, Porter 1.5yr)

Because you seem very genuine and sincere, you are being spared my usual (and very harsh!) rant about the responsibilities of pet ownership and the obligation to take a sick animal to a veterinarian. In place of that, I plead with you that before you decide to get another animal, that you seriously reconsider your capabilities for providing quality care to your pets. I always recommend having $100-$150 available for any necessary vet visits. ANYONE that claims they don't have the money for a vet visit should not be responsible for every aspect of an animal's life. At the very least in this case, it is easy to assume the snake is suffering and deserves to be humanely euthanized (note: freezing is not humane). Good luck in the future.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I used Provent-A-Mite on ball python and hognose cages. I did have 2 hognoses die even though I waited after the ventilation period before putting them back. If I had to do it again I would wash out the cages before putting them back. It only affected the hognoses (colubrids supposedly are more susceptible) but it was still very sad.