Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ive seen it mentioned in here that the Outer Banks Kings are a relict population of Floridana. Ive also seen that some breeders have posted pics of Florida X Eastern Kings and noted they look like Outer Banks Kings but this is erroneous. Anybody who has bred or kept Outer Banks Kings knows that they look damn near identical to Eastern Kings (well they are Eastern Kings)as babies. Yes some hatchlings show some speckling but the ones that are showing it well are probably the result of selective breeding. The animals that are Floridana X Eastern as hatchlings look more like adult Outer Banks Kings not juveniles. To compare them to adults is silly since they wont look like Outer Banks Kings for very long once they start getting lighter due to Floridana influence. I think OBK (Outer Banks Kings for short) are simply Eastern Kings stuck on that thin strip of sand and they began apapting to the enviroment at a faster pace probably due to inbreeding. There are folks who frequent this forum who know more about wild Outer Banks Kings than me i.e. Tony Dongarra, Howie Sherman and maybe others. Does anyone else have thoughts on how Outer Banks came to be or how they look they way they look ? Krysko has done DNA analysis and finds that the Kings from the Outer Banks are genetically the same as the mainland Eastern Kings and not the Kings of Florida. This asks the question how long does something need to be seperated before its genetic code looks differnt ? I dont know personally but Im sure someone has an opinion on that.
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Juvenile Outer Banks King

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A typical Outer Banks Kingsnake adult. Photo by Carl Bartlett.

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IMHO they are just easterns and I'm not sure that the isolations we’re talking about is sufficient to allow complete speciation on any time frame. Even if FL influence does or did at one time extend this far north, the primary influence is now that of the eastern king.

As for how long it takes for a population to phenotypically differentiate, I think that can it can happen very quickly especially if the form is question is highly variable and the selection pressure is relatively strong.

Eastern patterns that are highly OBX like are also found in mainland areas of N.E. North Carolina and S.E. Virginia that are sandy, high and dry with little vegetation. Kings found on the barrier islands, at least those most likely to manifest the typical OBX phenotype, generally inhabit the interface between the salt marsh and dune habitats. In such locations, vegetative cover can be sparse and any pattern that enhances detection from predators would be quickly selected for. It’s also possible that the general lightening of the pattern could also allows for a longer foraging periods given that it would reflect more light (hence heat) than a typical eastern’s pattern would. All in all it’s simply a matter of selection pressures altering the frequency that a given phenotype is observed. OBX kings are just an extreme example because the shift in gene frequency is assisted by a fair degree of isolation.

I like your explanation Tony. I have never been in close association with outterbanks kings but based on what I can grasp of the situation from an outsiders perspective I was thinking along the same lines. Phil

You can't be that concise with a answer. You need to space it off in a few responses and deviate from the subject at least a little.

Ofcourse I am kidding. Very nicely said thank You
later Jason

floridani are a major complex of Getula like the EASTERN dont leave em out or Samual L Jackon and that other Rapper discredit Us'all and say we dont care or did he say that HE dont like Yadda Yadda B.S. ! Chris ps: they got immediate attention according to me trying to organize something of that magnitude takes a lil time and CLEARAGE "new word" cant drive in flood and trees blocking passage.Prayers for all . and it looks like 3 active hurricanes in the central Atlantic NOW i guess its ok to grab your crotch, waybe moon walk .oh look whos on the news Amen to Kayne West give someone your watch .Chris

If you were shooting for the least coherent post on this forum, you missed by a long shot! LOL

i am not sure how far the banks are off the coast of north carolina, but is there the possibility of gene flow from the mainland? i have also seen some pics of mainland getula that are speckled, maybe there is gene flow from the islands? it would be interesting to figure out the generation time out on the OBX, see how fast things are changing ( at least as far as phenotypes)
daveb

..."patternless" OBX?? I would guess that someone will produce one eventually. Some of their markers are quite similar to ANF animals and obviously they share some very similar natural history. Isolated populations, I guess, and the inbreeding that results from the isolation hasten the "morphology"? So it would not surprise me if someone working with the same stock and breeding that same stock year after year would wind up producing some "new" looks.
Anybody know of a "patternless" OBX out there?
:Mark

Another Getula that looks somewhat similar are those Edisto Island Easterns. I believe since they are also "isolated" natural line breeding has taken place to produce such unique specimens.
These Getula resemble Goini and OBX kings in my opinion.....
What is your take on this Mark? Keith? Tony?

John Lassiter

The Edistos look even more like ANF animals to me (some anyway)
I need to add both to my collection --right away!
:Mark

I agree.....ME TOO!
Great looking patternless Goini Mark.

John Lassiter

On my site Kevin Enge has an article regarding the history of the Mosaic or Edisto Island Eastern King. Edisto isnt that isolated Im told and there have been Goini looking Kings found in the surounding counties...Take a look at some of these....
Richland Co., SC

-This a f1 animals from a wild collected gravid female from Berkeley Co. I believe.

-Berkely Co., SC

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Pair of WC Mosaic Kings from Edisto Island, SC

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Mark, As far as I know there has never been a patternless OBK. They do look similar in that both have the interband lightening but OBKs don't get the wide bands like you see in the population from the ANF. OBKs seem to have more of a whiter look to me too. Did you ever see any of the Mosaic Kings Kevin Enge produced? I saw one he produced this year (I think) and it looked just like a striped AK. So it wouldn't surprise me if something unusual did come out of the OBKs.

There are aberrants that were produced by Carl Bartlett and they came from f1 to f1 breedings I beleive. Here is one of them...

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Awesome Keith! I've never seen OBKs like those before. Seems like I can't even remember the last time someone posted a pic of an OBK on here.

Now those look remarkabely very similar to patternless goini.

I would like to see pics of a patternless goini, the Bartlett aberrant/patternless OBX and an Edisto Island patternless or one close to patternless all pictured together......for some comparison.

I know DNA tests have been done on the OBX and the Goini, but how about the Mosaics or Edisto Island getula? There has to be some similarities.......But I am no scientist. They all "appear" to have descended from a single relict gene pool....OR.......Maybe the isolation and natural line breeding caused these aberrancies and speckles to occur in each isolated population?
Interesting....
John Lassiter

...John
"Maybe the isolation and natural line breeding caused these aberrancies and speckles to occur in each isolated population?"
We as breeders/keepers are our own "islands" so to speak, and if "new" morphs or whatever pop up in just a relatively very short time (that we breed them)then I'd say isolation and inbreeeding have a lot to do with it.
We keep what we like--nature keeps what works. I guess.
:Mark

I agree with you 110%
In nature it happens by natural selection or natural line breeding so to speak.
In our snake rooms it is selective propogation that causes these unseen pattern aberrancies to come to be.

Look at Thayeri for example....We now have in our hobby a rainbow of colors that could never have happened in the wild. Don't get me wrong, some W/C Thayeri are nice, but selective line breeding has gotten their Awesome colors to where they are today thanks to folks like Frank Retes, Tim Gebhart, Ric Blair and Dan Vermilya.....And now a few others are carrying it on with them......

Why do you think it is so hard for me to sale the best looking neonates from any breeding project....There may be something in there that would be missed if sold off to someone else that just wants one as a pet or breeds it to a "not so attractive" specimen.....

I think I will remain to be stingy with some.......LOL

John Lassiter

Besides the snakes themselves I think the common factors are sandy coastal environments.

Mark I've seen animals that has so lightened as they mature that they become patternless. This is different from true patternless goini which are patternless at hatching. Still the goini analogy is pretty strong. Striped animals are not uncommon, at least among captive populations and I've seen several in the wild that are quite yellow. Don't see much red though.