Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just curious if there were any alternatives to mice for corn snakes. I know that snakes are not vegetarian but I know that they have veggie dog food and cat food. Just curious if anyone had marketed any snake food yet.

A snakes body can not process veggies. It needs rodent prey to survive.

As far as vegitarian food for dogs and cats, in my mind it borders on animal cruelty, forcing an animal to eat something that it was not designed to eat just because the owner has a hangup. If a person cant provide an animal with its natural food that its body needs, then that person shouldnt own the animal...

If the idea of killing something furry and cute bothers you (like it bothers me) cornsnakes do very well with frozen/thawed food. The mice are humanely dispatched. Freezing kills parasites and breaks down the cell walls, making the prey more digestable, and prekilled prey wont fight back. Frozen food also costs less than live.

I agree. They really do need the calcium and minerals from the whole body of the rodent. As much as I am a rat lover, I recognize that my snakes need to eat right as well.People, on the other hand, don't really eat the whole animal at once and can be omnivores as well as vegetarians, due to the variety in diet that people can have. Snakes are truly carnivorous.

Anoles and chicks are on the menu for cornsnakes as well, although mice are the easiest and cheapest source of food for a cornsnake.

If you absolutely cannot stand feeding a cornsnake something which is still in the shape of an animal (whether live or frozen/thawed), T-Rex makes a sausage-type thing which is basically the aforementioned animals packaged in non-cute-and-furry sausage form (T-Rex Snake Steak Sausages, IIRC is the name). There's also MouseMaker which is used to scent the sausages to make them actually smell like the cornsnake's normal prey.

**Note you can't get away with feeding cornsnakes sausage from your deli... it's NOT the same thing.

All snakes are carnivores, pure and simple. There is no vegetarian food that a snake could live off of.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

has anybody had expierience with it? i dont think it works but thats an oppinion
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

i was going to try them but no stores in my area carry them.....

I think it is mostly a European thing... It is illegal to feed your snake mice in some countries....? I think I heard that somewhere....
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Road Hog"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches" (Didn't name her!)

why would it be illegal?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

The animal rights people seem to have made more headway in many European countries than they have here. But watch out - they would like to take our rights too. Seems it is inhumane to allow snakes to eat live rodents, even if some snakes might not eat f/t, and would starve themselves to death.

One European herper told me that the animal rights people are so active over there that most breeders will not allow photos to be taken of their displays at an expo, because the humaniacs will use the photos of temporary deli cups as animal cruelty examples.

Just in case anyone thinks these ideas are too far fetched, do some research on PETA, ALF, HSUS et.al. There are more people than you might realize, who actually believe that ALL pets are being abused simply by being pets!

There are even some within the pet trade who are working for "the other side" by putting out erroneous information to try to discredit what we do...escpecially in regards to those icky, scary, DANGEROUS snakes and lizards!!!!

Wake up folks! Liberty cannot be taken away in the country, unless we are willing to allow it to be taken...it's up to US to protect what we do!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Imagine being a scientist trying to develop treatments for various animal and human ailments such as HIV/SIV/FIV, Diabetes, Heart failure, transplant therapy, etc etc and having to hide what you do because ALF/PETA/ELF will try to destroy research or "save" the animals from experimentation. Sad as it may sound, but nearly all medications have been developed by these means. Yet no matter the good, they try to stop the research and free the animals. Great idea freeing an animal from research, but the down side is that most of them are housed in such sterile conditions that they do not have the immune system to actually survive in an outdoor environment and will die in a short period of time after being "set free." Or some of these agencies will set diseased animals free thinking its the best thing for them, but in actuality they just set animals free that carry extremely deadly diseases (ebola, SIV, natural primate Herpes B-virus {zoonotic and extremely deadly to humans, kills humans in less than 3 days or will cause celphalitus and do brain damage!}). Their intentions may be good, but their actions tend to cause more damage than what is actually done (snake food, research). They might as well try to stop the international trade in meat if they really want to tackle something. "Cruelty" is very high there, especially in the US slaughter houses. Its pretty scary what they will go after. The movie "28 days later" could truly occur because PETA/ALF are crazy enough to actually do that type of work.

boy

Yes but did you know that many of the dogs and cats and some other animals that these Scientists experiment on were once pets? Some people take these pets and sell them off to labratories because they like the fact that they trust humans. Animals feel pain, fear death, and suffer just like we do but no one seems to think that they are important. Also there are a lot of meaningless expirements conducted on animals. Some scientists test shampoos and lotions by putting it directly on a rabbits eye and the rabbit is not allowed to close it's eye. Then they see how much damage is done. Imagine if you got shampoo in your eyes and you couldn't close them or wipe out the shampoo for days. Anyway if stuff in certain shampoos need to be tested for potency then I'm afraid of what they put in it. There are probably many other ways to develop treatments and cures for certain diseases such as cell culturing, etc. Yes it is stupid to release animals that may carry dangerous diseases that could easily be spread or animals that are too sterile to leave there current environment but don't forget that these animals are being exploited for you so respect them for sacrifices.

Many years ago, I had an Eastern King Snake that I had trained to eat raw hotdogs and hamburger meat. I scented the meat with a mouse at first, then it got to the point where I just put the dogs or hamburger (rolled in an oblong shape) onto a paper plate and into the cage. The snake would eat it as long as the meat was at room temperature. The snake got really fat, so I don't recommend this practice as we all know what garbage goes into hotdogs. But I was a kid back then and we had no pet stores around here that sold feeder mice.

back when we were writing the original Cornsnake Manual (more details about using them in the book). Most established feeders would take them, but sometimes they had to be trained by scenting with real mice (not always just mousemaker). But most would eventually take them without scenting. I didn't like the soft texture (they got gooey after a little while in the cage), but for somebody who just can't use real mice, they are an alternative. The makers state that they used the sausages for a whole generation of colubrids and bred them using only the sausages, so they must have good nutrtional value.

I had heard that T-Rex may no longer be making them. But check their website or call them to be sure.

they are still on the site
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

Man over time have changed what dogs eat.Most are vegetarians.Alot of dogs will throw up if you try to feed them just meat.Ive seen the snake sausages and there still meat,and for the price you might as well feed them cavair...Paul
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Taste like chicken

I think you've confused not eating flesh in its natural form (straight off the ungulate) with being vegetarians. Most dog foods are still based on animal protein. We've simply rendered in unrecognizeable.

>>I think you've confused not eating flesh in its natural form (straight off the ungulate) with being vegetarians. Most dog foods are still based on animal protein. We've simply rendered in unrecognizeable.

My purina says 98 corn meal.The other 2% is just crap.Not confused.Let some sit outside in the rain for a couple days.Then smell it.I live in corn country and it smells just like the bottom of a moldy corn bin.Canned dog food has meat in it...Paul
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Taste like chicken

98% corn meal is a mistake, you've read the label wrong. Otherwise it would not pass the minimal afco feeding trials and would not be marketable. Even the cheapest, crappiest, store-brand crap has more dietary ingredients than that.

As said in another post, dogs are omnivores and do indeed eat a good amount of vegetation. The %age of meat only needs to be between 20-40%, and of more importance is the quality of the ingredients. The best food you can buy is at your veterinary clinic, and secondly would be your premium brands at your petstore.

As for the tofu idea... it won't work. Yes it's protein, but saying a carnivore needs protein is oversimplifying things. It needs animal protein plain and simple.

Ian

>>>Gargoyle420 said My purina says 98 corn meal.The other 2% is just crap.Not confused.Let some sit outside in the rain for a couple days.Then smell it.I live in corn country and it smells just like the bottom of a moldy corn bin.Canned dog food has meat in it...Paul

SOunds fishy. Regardless, I said MOST, not all. I certainly wouldn't feed my dogs 98% corn meal and 2% crap.

That's just not true. All domestic dogs are decendents of wild dogs, such as wolves, dingos, etc - all of which eat meat as the VAST majority of their diet. They don't even have the cheewing teeth of an onivore.

Dogs are carnivores. The only reason your dog food has corn in it is beacuse it's cheap food and corn is a cheap meat substitute, i.e filler. Check out the ingredients on high-end dog food, and you will find that it's almost 100% meat.

Many dogs are allergic to corn because they are not designed to eat it. These allergies cause dry itchy skin, loss of hair, and ear swelling and infections. For this allergy, many vets recommend feeding affected dogs 100% raw chicken.

Tom Anderson

Thing about dogs, is they've lived around us humans for about 125K years and we aren't exactly good at sharing the tasty meat we come across. They've adapted to that and while they'll always lean towards meat they'll eat nearly anything, the definition of an omnivore. On average they do need a fair amount of animal protein to stay healthy, (and should be given it, same as snakes should be given whole, high quality rodents) but they need notably less than say, a wolf of the same size and far less than cats.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Just check out the dental formula.

Incisors -2
Canines -1
Premolars -4
Molars -3

While the carnivorous feline has a forumula like this

Incisors -2
Canines -1
Premolars -3
Molars -2
A note should be made that not all canines/felines will present this many teeth, and some premolars may not be present.

If you have further questions about the appropriate diet of a canine, consult your veterinarian. This of course, is a forum for snakes.

Ian

There is a vegetarian dog food. It's designed as a hypoallergenic diet, to fight a certain type of urinary crystal, and to appeal to the vegetarian owners who feel their animals should make the same choice they do.

There is no vegetarian cat food. While dogs are omnivorous, cats are not, and have strict protein requirments that cannot be met by a vegetarian diet.
Snakes fall into this catagory. They require animal proteins, and a prey diet. If mice are a problem for you to feed, (in addition to reconsidering a snake for a pet) there are processed versions available that some snakes may accept. I believe it comes in a sausage type form.

Ian

if you cant take the thought of your cute little hatchling going to viciosly squeeze the life out of rodents or lizards than dont buy one.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

I have 7 cornsnakes and 8 rosy boas.

I have also kept ball pythons, cal kings, desert kings and grey banded kings.

NONE, I repeat NONE of my snakes have ever "viciously crushed the life" out of anything.

I feed frozen.

And while I know that some snakes will not accept frozen, I dont understand the type of person who feeds live because they enjoy watching the kill. I think that attitude is sadistic and cruel.

Many snakes still treat FT as a live animal and constrict it. And why does everyone always forget PK food...its seems like its either FT or live and live is like selling your soul to the devil

My rosy boas are so funny. They grab the thawed mouse off the tongs and roll all over the cage with it, squeezing and "killing" it.

My corns arent nearly so dramatic!

LOL, you should see my corns then. I only feed f/t to my snakes, 3 ball pythons and 2 corns. My snow corn wrestles the f/t rodent to the ground and attacks it. She puts on quite a display.

Snakes are obligate carnivores and no ammount of tofu or veggie mice or whatever will fly. Way back years ago i had an issue with snakes eating cute widdle mice. I didnt get a snake. When i got my first snake, i shed a tear for the mouse that died, but got over it quick and realized that my snake is so cool and i wouldnt be able to keep him alive without the life of that mouse.
Now, my freezer is packed with rodents! I respect the lives of the mice, as do my snakes. But to keep my snakes alive, those mice and rats have to give up their lives. Its as simple as that.-jen

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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
1.0 red blood python-Hiss
1.0 peach phase thayeri-Sancho......MIA
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 partial stripe ghost corn- Raven
1.0 Sunglow motley corn-Ernie
1.1 hognose- Pricilla and Odd
0.2 leos- Boji and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.0 BTS- Griffon
0.1 Iggy- Sunny
0.0.1 crested gecko- Jubeh
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
2.0 bettas
0.0.1 goldfish-fishwad

The original poster did not say she had a PROBLEM with feeding mice she just asked if there were alternatives - suddenly everyone is bashing her saying don't get a snake, being graphic about snakes crushing cute furry things etc. Geez people can't someone ask a question without getting flamed?

on a public forum... unfortunately its inevitable. I rarely post anymore because of it. Although I did feed into the above about PETA/ALf thing, mostly because it interferes with my life though.

boy.

There is no vegetarian food for snakes. All snakes are strictly carnivores. They would not accept anything with vegetables in it. They will also not accept anything that isn't a whole animal. The best thing to do is stick with prekilled mice for your snake. Keep them frozen, and then thaw them out before feeding them to your snake.

There is no more reason for trying to get a snake to eat vegetation because the owner does, than there is for the owner to swallow whole live or dead mice because the snake does. A snake will eat what IT wants, not what you want it to eat. Try putting a cucumber in the cage and see if the animal prefers it over the rat. Then stick with what the snake eats.
Try feeding a saltwater croc a head of lettuce instead of a chicken and see what happens.

"They will also not accept anything that isn't a whole animal"

This is incorrect.

I know people who have had success in feeding chicken necks.

Snakes will also eat regular sausages (not that it's any good for them).

Snakes will eat steak as well.

And, when i've ran out of smaller feeders, i've fed chopped up larger feeders.

Hell, a mate of mine has a snake that will eat it's own defecation.

Go figure.

ok.....um snakes are meant to eat animal matter not veggie matter yes it gets it from the food it eats but not directly.

One thing people haven't mentioned: Eggs

There are a few snakes specialized for feeding on eggs. Most common are the dasypeltis species - the African Egg Eaters. If you can get a steady supply of quail eggs, (or finch eggs for hatchlings) they're an option. Japanese rat snakes (elaphe climacophora) are also physically and behaviorally adapted to eating eggs. I wouldn't feed them exclusively eggs, and I'm curious about what someone with more experience with them would say, but it might make you feel better to keep a snake that would eat maybe 50% or more eggs - you'd at least be reducing the numbers of rodents and chicks killed. Kukri snakes (Oligodon), which specialize on bird and reptile eggs (see a post by Oxyrhopus in the rear fang forum a couple months ago), are an option, though hard to come by.

There are other species that eat eggs as a routine part of their diet if not predominately (Pseustes species, most king snakes, N. American rat snakes, Pituophis), and I bet you could get by feeding them 30%-50% eggs. I've got a pueblan milk snake that eats chicks, but gobbles up quail eggs whenever I put them in with her. A lot of people will probably respond that it would be a nutritionally poor diet, but I haven't seen studies of diet impacts on the health of most of the generalist species we keep - for example who's to say that an exclusive diet of mice is the best thing for snakes like Florida Kings that eat mostly reptiles and amphibians in the wild? There's always a chance that a diet of rodents is too nutrient RICH for some snakes, but again, I haven't seen any studies either way (if anyone could suggest some, that would be cool).

Finally, if you really want a challenge, you could get your hands on a Scarlet snake (Cemophora), which specializes on reptile eggs, but can be trained to take a diet of mostly beaten chicken egg (see posts on this in the small terrestrial snakes forum).
Phillyherping