Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Went herping at a stream today, in Pittsburgh, PA, on the lookout for neonate queen snakes and northern water snakes. The trip started off bad, didn't see anything for half an hour. Flipped rocks, moved tarp, just about everything, no signs of sheds, but alot of prey items everywhere(small minnows/crayfish/salamanders).

It's pretty sad, I came to this area for the first time about 10 years ago, and used to be able to find atleast 30 neonatal snakes, but they recently did some construction on the stream, and I have a feeling that had something to do with the demise of the snakes there.

After about 40 minutes of nothing, a friend of mine spotted a fish, said it looked pretty big. So I looked. It moved through the stream in an area where it was about 4' deep or so. Then I watched it move past something that looked like a snake. Though my eyes are bad so I couldn't really tell. My friend said it looked like a snake, so we moved closer.

Turns out, it was an adult Queen Snake, feasting on a crayfish. I have heard of very few people witnessing this in the field. We waited until it finished it's meal, about 10 minutes or so, all of which underwater. The specimen was collected and will be donated to science.

Neat sight though. Wish I had the camera on me.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

What exactly does "donated to science" mean. I was reading your post and thought that you came of extremely hypocritical. On one hand your condemning a construction project that is adversely affecting snake populations. But at the same time you are taking the snake out of its environment. I just don't see much difference between the two. Are you using the snake to captive breed and then but its offspring back into the wild. Is this what "donating to science" means. I'm not casting judgement here, its just your post has drawn my attention and curiousity. I'm unclear on what "donated to science" exactly means. Also what is the status of queen snakes in pa, i thought that they were fairly uncommon. Thanks

Well, I don't know about the state-wide status on queen snakes, but in the area where I find them I have seen a couple hundred.

Donated to science could mean a couple things. Maybe I'll get it preserved and donate it to a museum or university. Maybe it'll become part of a feeding trial. Or maybe it could be kept under captive conditions to be observed more thoroughly. Ya never know, I'm not even sure yet....

Maybe I'll just keep it for a little while, then let it go.

It's a nice looking snake too. Good size, looks like a female.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Yeah I was just looking on a site and it said they were rare, so i didn't know if they were threatened or not. I know they are rare in New York but was unsure about PA. Seeing an earlier post of yours it seems your pretty adamant about collecting queens as food. I'm not going to be one of those people on here that lectures you. I just hope your collecting with discretion and not depleting a population. take care

Yeah, well the last couple of times I went I didn't bring back anything to use as food. Snakes there are disappearing for some reason.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

well, i guess where at least one of them disappeared to.
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-Mike Martin
North Carolina

Your insignificant contribution to "science" does little other than satisfy your need to collect and 'learn' about these snakes. If the snakes' numbers are depleting in an area, simply observe them in the wild if you care about them. Removing an adult individual from a declining population harms future reproductive efforts! Otherwise it's just for your selfish intest. Keep on feeding your ophidiophagy fetish.

It's people like you, that claim others have fetishes that have problems. Do you know how many snakes I have that will eat snakes? Let me help you out here, 7. Do you know how many of them actually get snakes? 2. Fetish? Dude keep that crap to yourself.

And I already stated on another forum that the snake was going to be released.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

It's when you post images of ophidophagy on numerous occasions that tend to get people to think that way. You post images that are not even your own that show snakes eating snakes. What purpose does that serve? I think posting photos of wild herps would be more appreciated than posting photos of captive snakes eating whatever. Just my opinion.

n/p

That I've posted another person's pics is when he/she cannot upload them. Due to a slow computer, if they're just not keen with computer use.

I don't take field pics, because I never take a camera out into the field.

And there are alot of people that appreciate my pics. Whether it's a snake eating or not.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

nt

Mike I have a question for you shouldn't you know state regulations and laws before collecting. What if queen snakes were endangered in PA, and you were collecting them would this seem right?? Just not from and ethical point of view, but also from a legal point of view. Also did it ever dawn on you that snakes are becoming more and more rare in your area because of collection??possibly your collection, duh. Also in a previous post you stated what is the difference between snakes eating eachother in the wild and snakes eating eachother in your tanks. Well once again lets think. If you take a queen snake out of the wild and let's say that was going to be a meal for a wild ringneck snake. Then either that wild ringneck is going to eat another queen snake or it may possibly starve. So therefore, you taking queen snakes out of the wild it will adversely affect something, whether it is the queen snakes or the ringnecks, your disrupting the food chain. Also mike if you can't afford to buy food for your snakes then you most likely can't afford to raise your snakes properly since pets and animals require alot of care. Mike I'm not trying to cure your ignorance, I'm just trying to enlighten you to how your words are perceived.

Oh yeah one last thing your ignorance shows through once again by claiming your contributing to science. Mike you obviously enjoy setting yourself up for critism. And also enjoy disrespecting people out there who are actually contributing to science and are trying to help wild populations. Which is 180 degrees different from what your doing. Hopefully someday you will get it, unfortunately i doubt it.

The snake was collected because I was going to attempt to set up some of these snakes in captivity. But it is becoming later in the year, and finding a way to hibernate it will be difficult.

Everytime I look back on the day, I do wish I would've just left it there, but I didn't. The snake will be released in a few days, and all's well that ends well.

The majority of the time I can afford to feed my snakes.

It's just I don't buy feeder snakes, it's just something I don't do. But this year I feel I've used too many neonate garters and such as feeders from around here, and am about to buy a bunch of kinked elaphes.

You don't think I can raise snakes? Come to my house anyday and you can see the snakes I've raised up.

See I don't have a problem with people saying stuff, because half of the time that I post, I get negative comments back. But you guys are seriously making too big of a deal out of this considering the snake is being released.

Take care lol.

But seriously, too big of a deal over a small topic.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

What's got everyone upset is the thought of a snake that is uncommon/rare in a certain locality and possibly protected being used as a food item. Basically if you don't want this kink of response then you shouldn't post things that will invite negative feedback. It's that simple.
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Steve W.

They aren't protected here. And they aren't uncommon (usually) in that area, they may be rare there now because of the hot weather, or maybe I'm just going at the wrong time of day.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Mike,

I am not going to go into finger pointing (my personal feeling are that you should have left it be (and in turn no mucking around) but....each to their own).

Just on re release, I wonder do you have quarantine facilities at your place and has the Queen been kept in these conditions? As by re releasing it you may in fact transport any pathogens that maybe within your own collection into this apparently struggling ecosystem which may in turn cause it to crash.

Maybe the specimen you have is better being kept by yourself, another keeper or moved on to another institution such as a zoo or museum (most of these are into rare/threatened species) as opposed to re release.

Regards,
Scott Eipper

Last year my collection, or atleast a couple snakes in the collection, got infected with the crypto disease. After trying to deny it for the majority of the time, I lost a lot of my nice snakes. I'm trying to wipe it out now, as the disease just caused me to lose about 150.00.

So the queen snake was kept in an area where there were no other snakes. Whatever diseases it came with, it leaves with. And there was no way it could've caught something from my collection.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

So, I guess you're going to release it. I had thought after reading the posts on fieldherpers you might re-consider keeping it. If you love something set it free, yes. However, no snake is ever going to love you back. It's a one sided relationship, and the thing we get in return for our devotion is knowledge. Knowledge of biology, ecology, and husbandry. If you ask me, the aquisition of said is well worth taking a few risks, and tolerating a few faceless citicisms. Like Justinian2120 said, it might give these forum people something better to discuss than what shade of pink a pygmy rattler is.

Who are any of you to judge Mike? I saw a few of you being respectful and diplomatic (ie. switt and EricNM)...But the rest of you...What qualifies any of you to judge anyone? Do any of you have any kind fo education in population dynamics to base the assumptions that I have seen off of? If he chooses to feed snakes to other snakes, so what? How is that any different than feeding rodents to them?

And who are any of you to judge what science is? Science is a man-made concept and it can actually be applied to many different aspects. To question one's personal motives based off of a forum or a post is both ignorant and laughable.

I have followed a lot of Mike's posts over the years and while I disagree with some, I would never attack him in the way that you guys have.

Try being a little more humble.

...

Yeah, I do have a background in population dynamics. I am a biologist that has been involved with long term research projects, coupled with years of experience and interaction with other scientists investigating various elements of what we call herpetology. This here is the internet, specifically the kingsnake.com forums (not exactly the brightest star in the sky if you know what I mean) so I can say what I want because its all just a joke anyway. get over it.