Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First -- thank you for all your comments and suggestions. They are very much heard and appreciated.

The house that we found her at is up a steep hill and 3 city blocks away from a major river. Could she possibly live there? I checked out the backyard and there are literally only a couple of places she could have entered the backyard as there is a cyclone fence build on top of concrete running the entire backyard where she was. I have been watching this house for 2 months now and have never seen her there before. Of course there is plenty of foliage she could have been hiding in.

Do you still think she is not from these parts? We do get snow and it freezes a foot or so into the ground in average years. There are turtles at one of the parks but I don't know what kind they are.

Feeding/eating questions. Her shell is about the size of a softball -- to give you an idea of how big she is. She does find some snacks in the garden when we let her exercise. She just nibbles at what I give her -- which I have taken to doing mid-afternoon because it seems she only eats late afternoon/early evening. How much should I expect her to eat?

On to Yurtles' new home. She now has a secure 'apartment', about 3' x 4', a watering hole, a hide corner, an end filled with organic potting soil/organic moss mix and some orchid bark tossed around some flat rocks. We are growing her a nice area of grass which will be added once the grass takes hold. She seems to enjoy walking around in the yard, so we thought she might like that. Oh, yes, and she has a couple of small tropical plants (NOT definbachia) to hide under. (She always ends up under the hostas in the garden.) We figure we will observe her and see what she seems to enjoy most and go from there.

Activity. She 'wakes' up when it starts to warm up outside -- getting around 70 or so. She seems to want to walk around and be active at this time. Around 6 she seems to slow down, wants to sit under a plant and just sit there. Pretty much stays in one spot after about 8 until the morning. Is this normal activity? It has been getting into the low 40s at night here. She is still outside -- we move her up against the house on an enclosed patio at night.

Although she is cool and very interesting, our desire is to make sure she is safe and happy in her enviroment. If she could survive on her own, that would certainly be our first choice. But to release her in the river or the park to languish and die is just wrong. We also know it's wrong to keep an animal where it is not happy.

So -- your advice - suggestions?

Thank you SO very much!!

Lori, Paul and Yurtle

Not really, but you will have to set up some sort of indoor enclosure for Yurtle. A dip into the low forties at night with an ascent into the seventies (or even eighties?) during the day will keep the animal's metabolism going to some extent. This would seem a good thing, but repeated day in and day out, it might not be. These turtles are not always great at temperature jumps, and such rapid cooling periods every evening could easily result in pneumonia. That can be a tricky one to cure. Also, box turtles need to acheive a body temp of the lower eighties to properly digest food, and many prefer to get slightly warmer yet once they get going (8-10). Low temps aside, the nightly inactivity you mention is nothing unsusual.

This turtle is very lucky that individuals who care about it found it, as it would not likely live through a Washington winter. There are painted turtles that are common in parts of Washington, but these animals hibernate at the bottom of water bodies, and, due to certain physical properties of water, organisms have a much harder time freezing under submerged mud than they do buried in a foot or so of soil. It is not characteristic of most three-toed box turtles to dig this far down in the soil for hibernation.

There are tons of sites and caresheets devoted to indoor box turtle care. The biggest point of import is to keep the animal on a healthy diet. Box turtles don't get on well indoors on a diet of dog food. Feed worms and some crickets for protein, and since these can be difficult/inconvenient to come by, the two commercial foods that prove useful when soaked are Tetra ReptoMin and Mazuri Freshwater Turtle Diet. They are very satisfactorily fortified and both can be ordered from many places online if you don't have a supplier near you. Lists of nutritious vegetation can be found at too many sites to justify my relisting any of them here.

The big point of contention when it comes to housing turtles indoors - ultraviolet lights. Many species of reptiles need UV rays to properly assimilate a vitamin complex that is necessary for absorbing calcium from the diet. Some reptile supply companies have monopolized upon this knowledge and manufactured UV bulbs that cost a lot and last for half a year at best. I don't like them (aaargh, I can already hear the bullets of others' opinion detestment flying at me). Put simply, if turtles are maintained outdoors during the summer months, the bulbs are not necessary. They can help in the case of sick animals that need "quick hits," but are otherwise of minimal use. Too much/close exposure and the bulbs can indeed prove carcinogous. Good heat lights to enhance digestion of healthy foods are your best bet.

Indoor maintenance of these creatures is never optimal when compared to being outside in proper conditions, but, proper conditions are fortunate to persist for much more than three moths in Washington. In this scenario, indoor maintenance is a must. Most three-toed box turtles would be unable to hibernate for 5-6 months with success.

If it makes you feel any more optimistic, based on the picture that you posted, the animal looks to be captive-bred, and those tend to adjust to the esoteric mode of life that belongs to an indoor turtle far better than do their wild-caught counterparts. Without embracing any degree of anthropocentrism, box turtles seem quite content with life so long as they have ample space with the inclusion of the greater environmental necessities (a couple of natural hiding spots with varying humidity, heat from a lightsource, proper diet). It sounds as though you will be able to make such provisions. I haven't taken any pictures recently, so I recycle here.

I have to agree with what's been posted.
It is certain that this turtle you found, Yurtle isn't native to your region so do not feel guilty for making her live inside the house.
Without you she won't live, she needs you now, you are doing the right thing for her by keeping her indoors.
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PHRatz

Again, thank you for your input.

We checked on her this morning, after her first evening in her apartment and she had made the rounds, gotten in the water, dug some in the dirt. We did agree that she needs to come inside. We build this apartment so that we can just pick it up (together) and bring it in and out. As well as each piece of 'furniture' is removable for cleaning. Keeping things clean is of high importance to us so we made sure it wouldn't be a hugh project (like the freshwater aquarium!).

I did find a clamp on light fixture and a grow light (for plants) which we put on her for now. I'll pick up the UVB bulb later today. If she is inside during the winter she will most certainly need that.

Can I expect after she is moved inside and adjusts to the warmth of the house and the light her activity and appetite will improve? I would gather from what I have read that I should not try to hibernate her this year as her health may be in question with what she has been through?

I just can't tell you how much I appreciate your help in clarifying the information I'm reading. Thank you, thank you.

Lori and Yurtle

>>I did find a clamp on light fixture and a grow light (for plants) which we put on her for now. I'll pick up the UVB bulb later today. If she is inside during the winter she will most certainly need that.

Lighting can be confusing & pet stores often will confuse you more. For day time basking/heating bulbs, I use a regular household light bulb because the 10 dollar basking bulbs are the same thing: incandescent light bulbs.
The only difference in them is the reptile basking bulbs are higher in wattage than those that most people use for household lamps and they are not frosted. I use a 60 watt bulb because household bulb or expensive reptile basking bulb from the pet store- the only purpose for these types of bulbs is to provide heat.
The UVB/A bulbs that mimic sunlight are fluorescent so you need a different type of light fixture for them. You don't have to buy the light fixture in a pet store, any hardware store will carry them for less money than the pet stores do.
Here's an article that explains it in more detail:
http://www.anapsid.org/liteheat.html

>>
>>Can I expect after she is moved inside and adjusts to the warmth of the house and the light her activity and appetite will improve?
Yes you can.

>>I would gather from what I have read that I should not try to hibernate her this year as her health may be in question with what she has been through?

I agree with that too. They need to be in optimum health to hibernate & since you don't know anything about how long this turtle was alone or anything about the background, it'd be best not to do that this year.. if ever. It's not a requirement that they always be hibernated every year it depends on each individual turtle & what may or may not be wrong with it.
Nobody really knows for absolutely certain if it affects their health adversly or not to keep them awake year round especially if you aren't breeding them. It's a matter of opinion at the moment with pets.
I've found that if you were to ask a group of herp vets the question you'd get a half & half answer.. half say do it, half say you don't need to do this with an indoor pet.
Why do they hibernate in the wild? Because weather conditions dictate that they do. Would they do this if it stayed warm year round? No they wouldn't so who knows for sure if it's needed for all box turtles? I don't know, I can't get a conclusive answer on that.
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PHRatz

Reptile basking bulbs are not especially different in wattage than standard house incandescents. They tend to come in the same wattage range - from 25-150W, depending on the animal's needs (temperate zone little thin-skinned burrow-dwelling geckoes to equatorial canopy-dwelling iguanas). The difference is in the amount of heat produced. If you need a basking site to read 37C, a 60W house bulb won't do it, but a good 60W reptile bulb, close enough, could. You'd likely need a 100-150W house bulb to get a temp of 37C or higher, and the success in that will also be affected by room temp in which the cage is located. In short, reptile bulbs, while they can cost two to five times what equal-wattage house bulbs do, they produce electrically optimal heat, saving on your energy bill. You'd have to do the narrow math beyond that to figure which is best for your situation.

I have heard unverified reports of plant bulbs causing retinal damage in animals when exposed at close range. Whether this is valid or not...

UVB bulbs are generally not necessary for turtles that get at least three or four months outside each year. Most of the flourescent ones are the least optimal of the group, and the good incandescent-style (usually have to be ordered from the manufacturers or bought through reptile specialty stores) UVB bulbs are very, very expensive (and once again only last half a year or so). Focus more on proper heat and humidity ranges throughout the cage, and a good diet.

Hibernation in captive box turtles outside of their respective ranges is indeed a matter of contention. With this supposed female animal, look at it from this direction. Hibernation, as has already been said above, is a by-product of a necessity to avoid unlivable conditions (temps at which the animal cannot function). This behavior has been necessary for so long that it has secondarily altered some of the physiological aspects of the animals' annual cycle. Ovarian activity and spermatogenesis (sex cell production cycles) in box turtles seems largely influenced by cool spells. When these animals go without the cool spells, induction of egg production often is lost. In a captive female without a male, this may not be a bad thing. If a female hibernates and becomes induced to manufacture eggs the following spring, she will either have to resorb them or find a male to fertilize them, otherwise, they bind and she dies. Having a year-round active pet that fails to produce fully-developed action-pending gametes is not necessarily a negative option. Besides, this animal could not receive "normal" hibernation in Washington. It would have to be a keeper-abbreviated process, and that is a very gradual, complicated process to take on. These animals will, however, naturally "tune down" in the winter whether they are hibernated or kept at optimal temps. Remember, it has been necessary for these creatures to "remember/know" to hibernate for so long, it's as though you were to multiply remembering to brush your teeth by a million.

Would you please share the source of the following statement made in your recent post:

"If a female hibernates and becomes induced to manufacture eggs the following spring, she will either have to resorb them or find a male to fertilize them, otherwise, they bind and she dies."

Thank you
Stephanie

Check any collegiate level biology book, or, go for a more specific text on developmental biology, or embryology, or better yet, the reproductive section in a general herpetology book. Any volumes of these sorts should give you the info from which the statement you quoted can be inferenced.

In many female herps, the cycle of gamete (haploid sex cell, unfertilized "egg" progression begins before any sexual behavior occurs. Eggs must be fertilized prior to shelling, but this does not always occur, even in species with sperm-storage abilities such as box turtles. In single female captives, that male ingredient is often entirely lacking. In most cases, eggs do not go full term prior to fertilization or are readily resorbed in the latter stages still prior to shelling. Sometimes, however, this does not occur (what I was referring to). This is egg binding. Eggs do not have to be fertile in order to bind. Binding has been a common problem in female chelonians and squamates with repitition in the captive hobby. Any reasonable herp vet book should have a section devoted to the topic.

For a basic (and diagram-complemented) description of oogenesis and spermatogenesis (sex cell development) stages in box turtles, Dr. Kennith Dodd Jr.'s box turtle book should prove useful.

Thank you. I have the Kenneth Dodd book, but there is no mention of egg binding in the relevant chapter.
The reason I asked what your sources were was because I'd never heard/read an explanation of how egg binding occurs stated quite the way you initially worded it. Your subsequent elaboration didn't really help either, and in fact I found that it conflicted with your initial statement.
What caught my eye was your use of the word 'inference'.
Since I do not have a background in biology, I don't have old college text books on hand, so I contacted a bonafide herpetologist with a PhD, quoted your statements, and asked for a clarification.
Here's what was sent back to me (your statement in quotes, then his reply):

> "If a female hibernates and becomes induced to manufacture
> eggs the following spring, she will either have to resorb
> them or find a male to fertilize them, otherwise, they bind
> and she dies."

REPLY---- ovulation of enlarged follicles will occur in Spring
usually after stimulation by or during mating with a male. If follicles
do not ovulate (i.e., release out of the ovary), then it will resorb
(become atretic). No problem. Binding is not a problem with follicles
that have no egg shell around them. Binding only happens when for some
reason the shelled eggs are not able to be released from the oviduct -
like holding them too long waiting for a proper place to lay. If
binding happens, then a vet is required to take the eggs out. But
again, it is a rare thing if the female has a place to lay and males to
mate with.
>
>
> "Eggs must be fertilized prior to shelling, but this does
> not always occur, even in species with sperm-storage
> abilities such as box turtles. In single female captives,
> that male ingredient is often entirely lacking. In most
> cases, eggs do not go full term prior to fertilization or
> are readily resorbed in the latter stages still prior to
> shelling. Sometimes, however, this does not occur (what I
> was referring to). This is egg binding. Eggs do not have to
> be fertile in order to bind."

REPLY---- I do not know if females will
deposit shells around ovulated follicles without male inducement.
However, she will deposit shell around all her follicles if she mates -
in some cases sperm do not get to all the eggs. When that happens, then
the egg is simply infertile and does not develop. It does not mean that
the egg will stay in the oviduct and binds up. I suspect it does happen
but not often.
(End of exchange)

It would appear that you inferenced somewhat incorrectly. Please be careful when making blanket statements of that nature.

I have never had a female box turtle of mine become egg bound,so (fortuantely) I do not have first hand experience with such a problem, but I do hear and read about this happening in captive situations, and it is usually as a result of the gravid female having no suitable nesting site available, in WC or captive turtles that HAVE had access to males. Egg binding can probably be avoided simply by providing adequate habitat for the female.

Regards to all
Stephanie

When I wrote the initial comment about egg binding potential, I did not acknowledge frequency. I understand that egg binding is infrequent, and I was not trying to implicate that it should be a significant concern. The potential for avoidance of egg binding that could go along with not hibernating the animal is what I was discussing. Your outsource’s comment on eggs requiring a shell to become bound is correct yet irrelevant here, since the average box turtle keeper will have no way of knowing whether eggs inside a female are shelling or not. Unless the turtle’s weight is known or palpation is understood by the keeper, he/she won’t even know if the animal is developing ova in the first place. Both your address and that of your outsource emphasize the condition in mated females, which are not what I was speaking of and similarly do not relate to the single female this thread started with.

I don’t really understand why you take effort in picking through my responses, line by line, arguing nuances of words with which to strip them of any meaning. You do this yet you completely miss the points I make and you seem to be proud of it. Call me wrong if I’m wrong, but to come at me claiming me to be mistaken on a somewhat complicated biological process (which I didn’t get into the thick of until you asked) that you openly admitted you don’t have a background in, then sprinting to an academic (whose name and area of focus remains un-cited in the thread where you questioned my sources) and volleying his/her information that you could have achieved from the very genre of books I had already recommended you seems rather silly. Besides, how you know whether what he/she claims is credible or not, I have to wonder. If you have not read through primary publications that cover reptilian ovarian cycles nor have even experienced egg binding in any of your captives, how do you “know” with any certainty that his/her responses had any more credential than what I claimed? What you received as a response does not conflict with anything I said but rather fills in detail gaps that only you took note of, even though you haven’t cared enough to look any further into the subject yourself. What you call a blanket statement, others might call a usably general statement. But you don’t take the blanket for what it is (a simple point). On this blanket you inspect the thread count, scrutinize the fabric, scour the color, then you poke holes and finally burn it to see if that will finally tell you what it’s made of without even knowing what you’re looking for. People who can actually get something out of the “blanket” simply use it; apply it; if it doesn’t work, out it goes. Some of your posts do contain good, usable info, but here, again, you’re trying too hard. I think that not having the “old college textbooks” should be the least of your concerns when it comes to having a lack of background in biology, as you put it. You don’t need a background in biology to successfully keep turtles, especially not as single pets. You do need to understand that if you don’t have a background in biology, you shouldn’t expect to sensibly include lots of details about various biological processes when it comes to making applications in keeping these animals captive. I think I might not be the one creating the confusion. People can confuse themselves, you know.

Incidentally, female reptiles (at least captives) can and do shell eggs without male stimulation/contribution. Why else would there be publications, particularly in vet journals and other volumes dealing with captive reptiles, on egg binding in unmated female squamates and turtles? The condition is not exclusively a by-product of keepers failing to provide captive animals with usable substrate in which to nest. Whether the PhD with whom you spoke has ever actually bred any egg-laying reptiles would have great consequence upon determining whether your chosen authority figure was speaking from experience (with captive animals as opposed to in-the-field animals; there is a difference) or just theorizing. Perhaps now you might not be so quick to select one person’s input against that of another without any experience of your own? This is rather directionless exchange and I don’t hope to spend time on it again. Let’s play more gently and meaningfully in the future.

Indeed, why ARE you trying so hard?

Instead of continuing to bloviate, in an effort to impress us, have the humility to acknowledge that you misspoke.

And for pity's sake, please spare us these excessively long posts that contain so little information of any value.

Stephanie

As the individual to whom you quoted me gave a couple of general definitions on the progression of eggs and nothing else, I need more to understand your case.

Since this is all you provided, rather than your own explanation, I am not seeing what you are pointing at as misspeaking. I need you to let me know what I stated incorrectly if I am to take anything away from this. That's why I post; not to impress, but to simply exchange. I don't have anything to prove to you because I don't know you, just your writing. You should feel the same and I wish you did. I am indeed sorry for spending as much time on a couple of posts for you, since instead of reading and understanding, you again try to slap my wrist with no explanations of your own. Be more constructive and everyone will benefit. Thanks.

Some of the UVB bulbs being produced today are very good if you are lucky enough to get one that will last (They're still working on this). While the use of these bulbs is still highly debatable I always recommend them if you need a basking spot... it can't hurt and it might help.

I've been using these for about 6 years now. I have 3 bulbs that have been in use that long. I recently had a friend check out one of these bulbs with a UVB meter and I was surprised to find that it is producing the same amount of UVB as a brand new tube type bulb. The point is that these are usable for a good deal longer than a year.

On the egg binding... The eggs should not become bound if you have a healthy and active animal. Egg binding is a worse case scenario that does not often happen under normal circumstances even in captivity.

>>Reptile basking bulbs are not especially different in wattage than standard house incandescents. They tend to come in the same wattage range - from 25-150W, depending on the animal's needs (temperate zone little thin-skinned burrow-dwelling geckoes to equatorial canopy-dwelling iguanas). The difference is in the amount of heat produced. If you need a basking site to read 37C, a 60W house bulb won't do it, but a good 60W reptile bulb, close enough, could. You'd likely need a 100-150W house bulb to get a temp of 37C or higher, and the success in that will also be affected by room temp in which the cage is located. In short, reptile bulbs, while they can cost two to five times what equal-wattage house bulbs do, they produce electrically optimal heat, saving on your energy bill. You'd have to do the narrow math beyond that to figure which is best for your situation.
>>
>>I have heard unverified reports of plant bulbs causing retinal damage in animals when exposed at close range. Whether this is valid or not...
>>
>>UVB bulbs are generally not necessary for turtles that get at least three or four months outside each year. Most of the flourescent ones are the least optimal of the group, and the good incandescent-style (usually have to be ordered from the manufacturers or bought through reptile specialty stores) UVB bulbs are very, very expensive (and once again only last half a year or so). Focus more on proper heat and humidity ranges throughout the cage, and a good diet.
>>
>>Hibernation in captive box turtles outside of their respective ranges is indeed a matter of contention. With this supposed female animal, look at it from this direction. Hibernation, as has already been said above, is a by-product of a necessity to avoid unlivable conditions (temps at which the animal cannot function). This behavior has been necessary for so long that it has secondarily altered some of the physiological aspects of the animals' annual cycle. Ovarian activity and spermatogenesis (sex cell production cycles) in box turtles seems largely influenced by cool spells. When these animals go without the cool spells, induction of egg production often is lost. In a captive female without a male, this may not be a bad thing. If a female hibernates and becomes induced to manufacture eggs the following spring, she will either have to resorb them or find a male to fertilize them, otherwise, they bind and she dies. Having a year-round active pet that fails to produce fully-developed action-pending gametes is not necessarily a negative option. Besides, this animal could not receive "normal" hibernation in Washington. It would have to be a keeper-abbreviated process, and that is a very gradual, complicated process to take on. These animals will, however, naturally "tune down" in the winter whether they are hibernated or kept at optimal temps. Remember, it has been necessary for these creatures to "remember/know" to hibernate for so long, it's as though you were to multiply remembering to brush your teeth by a million.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Some of the UVB bulbs being produced today are very good if you are lucky enough to get one that will last (They're still working on this). While the use of these bulbs is still highly debatable I always recommend them if you need a basking spot... it can't hurt and it might help.

Which is why I switched to household bulbs, I couldn't find an expensive basking bulb that would last longer than a month if even that long. Since I was looking for heat, the household incandescents have worked just as well for me & when they burn out I don't care because I don't have to spend 10 bucks for another.
For winter heating I've gone with ceramic heat emitters. My first one is 5 years old now, it's still working fine.
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PHRatz

>>>>Some of the UVB bulbs being produced today are very good if you are lucky enough to get one that will last (They're still working on this). While the use of these bulbs is still highly debatable I always recommend them if you need a basking spot... it can't hurt and it might help.

Darn it you're talking about UVB in the basking area not basking bulbs. I didn't notice that in my last post.
I do still use the expensive reptile fluorescent full spectrum "UVB bulbs" or tubes but not for my box turtles. I use them for the aquatics that don't go outside much. My box turtles spend many months of the year outdoors in real sunlight so I don't bother with UVB for the one who needs to live indoors year round.
The one who lives indoors even gets real sunlight during winter months. Many days in winter here the temps are in the 60s to low 70s so she'll get a half hour or so of sunlight a few times a week even in Dec. Jan. and Feb.
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PHRatz