Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I'm just seeking some info about both of these, I have experince with various hots, all kinds of pit vipers and elapids, cobras and some western green mambas that I keep now. I've always wanted blacks or taipans. My question is to those who have kept them, I've heard taipans aren't as crazy and nuts as Black Mambas, they wont shoot up and onto a bookcase, and you can mostly tong them, where blacks , and my greens too, go insane with tongs, I have to hook and tail. Was just curious what can I expect if I keep a couple blacks or PNG taipans, and some people have told me PNG taipans are much easier to deal with then blacks and even my D. Viridis, was just curious which poses less of a threat to me between Black Mambas or PNG Taipans. Thanks much for your responses. Please if you have kept either of these species, post your experinces with them.

Here are my relevant experiences for what they're worth:

0.1 Captive born and raised black mamba, around 7.5' when I stated working with it about 3 years ago, now around 8.5'. One of the easier snakes I've worked with. Has never struck at me, sits on hooks easily and rarely tries to climb the hooks. Occasionally she resists going into the holding container, but does so slowly and clmly.

1.1 Wild caught black mamba, 7-8', totally insane. These two absolutely refused to go into a holding container, would hood, hiss, strike and charge across the room at you when they weren't climbing your hooks. I couldn't keep these guys on hooks for 3 seconds and they would immediately go after your hand if you tried to tail them. I quickly gave up on putting these snakes in containers and started using 3 cages for the two snakes. I would clean one cage and set it up with water and a hide, open an occupied cage and point the snake at the clean hide. These snakes were sold after a few months (not mine).

0.0.1 Wild caught PNG taipan, probably 5' when I started working with him and 6' or so when he was returned to his previous owner 2 1/2 years later. Nearly as insane. This might have been the fastest snake I've ever worked with (at least in the cage). Think a black racer but 3 times stronger. Way too fast and strong to tail, would sometimes sit on a hook if you could get him out of the cage in the first place. Ended up on the floor on a regular basis. Not nearly as hard to work with as the above mambas because: not as long, didn't seem to be able to get traction on the floor, would not try to climb the hook. He wasn't agressive as such, but if he hit the floor, he would just pick a direction and go, and sometimes that was right towards your feet.

As far as which one is more likely to kill you, I'd say either can be a nightmare, but keep in mind that if you ARE bitten, you've got a pretty good chance of surving the mamba bite with prompt care and little or no lasting damage. With the taipan, you could get bit in the parking lot of the hospital, with antivenom in your pocket, and it's still pretty dicey...

That will be $0.02 please...

It's not that one is more dangerous or difficult than the other. Both mentioned species (as well as numerous others) are without a doubt the 'elite' of the venomous species. If there is any question about working with either, than they shouldn't be owned. There is no room for error with either. Perfection is the key to both.

1-Blacks are far more meticulate about their reactions (more of a thinking snake) which leads to keeper complacency.

Taipans are far more erratic with their movements which leads to mistakes.

There is far more antivenom in this country for Black Mambas than for Taipans and as stated above Black Mambas are far easier to treat.

Both will make the causual mistake or inexperienced keeper very dead!

Tongs are not advised for either species and to be honest I never use tongs on any snake. There is not enough testosterone or stupidity in me to use tongs on either animal! That is just asking for the bomb to go off. The key to most species, those two specifically, is to avoid creating a threatening environment! A simple snakehook is best.

Tongs are only good for picking up tortoise poo!

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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

...tongs are also good for moving water bowls and cage furnature and feeding large pythons... Some people use them for getting things from the top shelf, but that's usually not a problem for me.

Like Larry & Terry said, the ferocity can vary from individual to individual. I kept an eleven foot polylepis in a walk-in sized cage & was able to walk in to feed it. Wild-caught, yet mellowed out in a relatively short period of time. The spacious cage may have had something to do with it.

The pucker factor on both is four star. Pseudohaje is knocking on the door of six.

~~Greg~~

All of the advice is right on here. One of the keys to keeping this species is understanding that although the species as a whole exhibit certain tendencies (and contrary to popular belief, as Greg mentioned, polylepis do become somewhat mellow in captivity once acclimated), it is absolutely imperative that the keeper also realizes that despite these general tendencies, every snake is an individual. We have been rehabbing a jameson's for over two years now (a very bad case of animal cruelty, crude attempts at "defanging" and much more). Now healthy, this once very placid and easy to work with snake is now a jet missile every time you open its cage. We now have to use shift boxes, long/thin hooks and even gauntlet style gloves due to the very aggressive nature of this snake. As Terry said, anything less than PERFECTION will wind you up a corpse.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Like Larry & Terry said, the ferocity can vary from individual to individual. I kept an eleven foot polylepis in a walk-in sized cage & was able to walk in to feed it. Wild-caught, yet mellowed out in a relatively short period of time. The spacious cage may have had something to do with it.
>>
>>The pucker factor on both is four star. Pseudohaje is knocking on the door of six.
>>
>> ~~Greg~~
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

If these snakes are so awfull do deal with whats the attraction?
I dont find either of them to be great looking snakes, but thats just a personal opinion..
Mostly just wondering...And anyone that does keep these and is still alive has my respect

Well...I dont keep either one of these snakes. I would quite frankly be a real idiot to attempt it. However, I don't necessarily think the attraction always comes from the looks of a snake. Take a black rat snake for example....BORING! However, in many peoples eyes they are awesome snakes. I personally have a yellow x black rat that is meaner than snot and isn't particularly pretty. However, the snake is interesting and pretty cool in it's own way. I know some morons would like to keep a B.M. or Taipan just because it COULD kill them and it makes them look cool. However, some have an interest because it is a different snake with a different attitude, different temperament, different activities, etc. Much like Burmese Pythons. Albinos are certainly pretty snakes. However, some people dont like them. They prefer the normals and find them MUCH prettier.

JMO,

Chris

>>If these snakes are so awfull do deal with whats the attraction?
>>I dont find either of them to be great looking snakes, but thats just a personal opinion..
>>Mostly just wondering...And anyone that does keep these and is still alive has my respect
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

You bring up good points on people's preferences and its interesting to read different points of view. My opinion, is that albino snakes aren't that nice looking....lacking most pigment, a) what's the point of a snake with reduced coloration? b) it's not very likely to survive in the wild c) no snake is worth the overpriced amounts people asked for amelanistic or pie balds, d) most captive ones have been so inbred that they're genetically inferior to F1s and F2s and likely will have suppressed immune systems. Boring to me is an albino monocle cobra.

Peronally, I think NORMAL black rat snakes are the most incredible snakes you'll find in the northeast, and the most impressive when they reach 6' or more. But then again, I'm a fanatic over completely melanistic snakes, not to mention ones that are as thick as your wrist and scale trees vertically, that have virtually no bark.

Haha....

Well the nice, easy going ratsnakes are boring to me. There is no specific great "coloration" to them. However, I find milksnakes and kingsnakes in normal forms and various forms to be quite amazing animals. I find spitting cobras to be amazing (although I wouldn't own one no matter how much experience I have). Like I said, I have a ratsnake hybrid and the only reason I dont find him boring is because during handling he certainly keeps me on my toes.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

I can appreciate the somthing different idea..i own a pair of coachwhips that are the meanest and fastest snakes i have ever owned..and i love everything about them..but i also like the way they look..they may not be deadly but they sure try..LOL

Exactly,

To some people, your coachwhips are pointless to own. Some might think that they aren't that pretty, and since they are aggressive, flighty and willing to fight they are too much trouble. However, you certainly have found some interest in them. Some might not understand why.... but you do. Furry animal owners probably think the same thing about ALL reptiles. However, obviously there are a number of people that see something in them.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

The only thing I have to add is this. Most snake individuals and species do mellow with regular hooking etc. The problem I have with this mentality is if a person doesn't 'learn' with a horrible individual snake then they have no comprehension of the potential behavior. When you work as many snakes as I do the best piece of wisdom I can offer is to not overlook the potential of a given species or individual to have a bad 'scale day'. This is how most keepers end up with an I.V. in their arm and very tearful family members....
Good luck and just because I can't seem to resist the temptation...."make sure you stock your own antivenoms!"
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

This post from WW awhile back is just so relivant it's not even funny...gives an idea of the potential of the Taipan...

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=768949,773764
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Great addition Terry!

I remember that post & thread. Supernatural relexes may sum it up.

People just get in over their heads and don't use common sense when selecting these "Elite's" of the Venomous Snakes for their collections. I would love to keep some of these species but I don't because:

1) I think of keeping other people I live with safe. Can you imagine the headlines if one of these bad boys got free and bit someone in the neighboorhood? Don't even think that it could not happen because you would be very wrong.

2) In a 10 x 13 ft room, smaller if you consider the space cages that up, these hyper deadly species could not be handled safely. No room to manuver at all. Hell, it's tought to stay out of the way of my pissy Puff Adder no less a Mamba or Taipan.

3) You can't enjoy collection if it kills you or tries to do so, every time you open the cage door.

Best,

Al

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

Just a little forward to my reposted data:
I have long been against the comparison of keeping coachwhips and racers to simulate keeping mambas and taipans.
I believe that no matter how hard you try, you can never make yourself believe that the coachwhip can kill/maim/permanently disable you in a split second.
To me, there is no comparison between a volatile colubrid and a deadly elapid. You must find someone who works with a number of these animals (of varying temperment) to see what they are capable of before you can judge your own ability to successfully deal with them.
Now, on to what happens when you find out that you are not quite as ready as you thought you were:

Here lately (over the past year) I have noticed a lot of people quoting statistics that "there has never been a death attributed to a pigmy rattlesnake (or a copperhead)."
Well, whether or not there have been any deaths caused by these two snakes (I have no desire to search through newspaper archives for the point of this post), there is a lot of space between death and sitting comfortably in your computer desk chair and talking about a snakebite.
Just a few of the things between death and comfort are:
PAIN ! ! !
swelling
disfigurement
necrosis
skin grafts
fasciotomy
hair loss
loss of digit or limb
loss of work/play time
various (and sometimes long term) sensitivities
and did I mention?
PAIN ! ! !
Just as a graphic example:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/download/3563/Bailey's thumb5 June 5 2004.JPG
This photo is from our snakebite photo album.
It is of a little girl who was bitten by a Copperhead.
You are absolutely right in that she probably won't die.
Aren't you glad that you didn't have to sit and see (or feel) the pain she must have felt for her finger to get to that state?
I hope she got to keep the finger!
And that it still works!
A friend of mine was bitten by a Rhinocerous Viper several years ago.
He is still taking pain medication in relation to his body's reaction to the venom!
YEARS LATER!!!!
Get it?
It is NOT just about whether a snakebite will kill you.
There are worse things than death.
Just imagine how much worse than a copperhead bite, the bite would be from a mamba or a taipan!
Karl H. Betz

I'll just add a little bit to the excellent responces you've had so far. Keep in mind, these are observations from my own personal experiences, and my own experiences ONLY. This is certainly not to be taken as law. With that....

My experience with Oxyuranus and Dendroaspis is as follows:
1.1 cbb juvenile O. s. canni (>1 year)
1.0 w.c. 7' O. s. canni (1 month)
1.0 cr 7' D. polylepis (kept for a short time for a friend)
0.1 ch D. angusticeps (~1 year)
1.0 w.c. 5' D. angusticeps (1 month)
1.0 w.c. 6.5' D. viridis (4 months)
0.1 w.c. 7' D. viridis (>1 month, acquired with severe oral stomatitis)

Honestly, of all these, only the large male D. viridis made me terribly nervous to deal with. But to address what you've asked about...

I've only dealt with the one polylepis so I won't comment other than to say that he was a total "kitten" compared to most of the other large elapids I've messed with. He was a very long term animal, so what they say about polys calming down in captivity did hold true for that one particular snake.

As for the taipans though, I feel I have enough experience to comment further. The adult male was bought as a fresh import and arrived in immaculate condition. Unfortunately, I took this for a sign of him being healthy and didn't pursue any automatic round of anti-parasitic medicine. Needless to say, this was a mistake, and the seemingly healthy snake went from great to dead within a day once symptoms were apparent. Lesson here: check all w.c. snakes' fecals no matter how they look outwardly and medicate accordingly!

The two little guys were cbb animals, and were roughly 1.5' when I acquired them. They were spirited initially, but not bad at all to deal with. They would ride a hook well enough, and hooking and tailing was actually easy. Feeding time was always interesting from day 1. They had very eager feeding responces and would fly out of the hide to nab any food they detected. As time went on and they added size, things began to change. The once easily hooked snakes began sliding off hooks like they were greased. Not only that, but hooking and tailing them became completely out of the question as SOON as I discovered (or they did) their new method of "flopping" back on their own bodies to guard their tails. If I bumped their tail with the hook to lift it, they would appear to 'clumbsily' flop head over back, and within a fraction of a second, the head would be where the tail was, ready to defend it. If I remember correctly, this began happening when they were roughly 2.5' in length and I'd had them for a few months. At this time, I began using a set of Mighty Midget tongs and a hook to handle them. During this time, they also began to change in temperament from moderately flighty and skittish to flighty and confrontational. They'd actively approach the front of the glass and ram it if they thought they had a chance. Also, feeding responces began to get more and more excitable to the point of the snakes' anticipating your introduction of prey once it was detected. At this point, I began using the Mighty Midgets to introduce food, rather than the 18" hemos I had been using prior.

By the time I made the decision to get out of hots, late summer of '04, the taipans and a few boomslangs were the only things I had left. Almost as a parting farewell, the male taipan really gave me a run for my money when I was packing them up for shipment. He managed to squeeze out of the tongs and land on the floor. Things were quickly righted, but it was the closest call I'd had with them.

Despite how horrible that all sounds, I really enjoyed keeping them. Yes, they are dangerous as hell. No one can deny that. In my eyes, they are simply the most dangerous snakes on the planet, bare none. Someone asked earlier why on earth anyone would want to keep such "plain looking" deadly snakes, and that's a really tough question to answer. Yes there are people who like them for the supposed macho factor. For me though, the allure of taipans is an overall aspect of their nature. I personally find them to be beautiful while having a personality and manner of movement unlike any other snake. Or most others at least. Working with them certainly comes with a risk though, to be sure. One that could easily spell death for the keeper, especially here in the US.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

I was in charge of the reptile portion of Lion Country Safari, an African Theme park. I had good contacts in Africa for snakes. While I did keep a few Asian snakes, most of the animals on display were African.

~~Greg~~

My only experience w/Mambas was a Black that myself and 2 other experienced snakes people (varying degrees of experience) kept at a facility about 25 years ago. Normally it was no problem, as it would go into it's hide box in the tank and the box was lifted out and the tank cleaned. This was done in a secured room about 9' by 20', and the Mamba was 7'. One time, as the box was being put back into the tank, the door was jostled open, the snake shot out (the lid was NOT slammed shut for obvious reasons) and the snake left the tank, went up my friend's arm, across his shoulder and out into the area. We "somewhat" calmly, with a hook, got it back into the tank. I think the snake was as shocked as we were. We figure our friend is living on borrowed time, 25 years later. They're so birdlike in their actions, and quick, that it's still a risk keeping them even with all precautions taken.