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Any comments would be welcome, thanks for playing. FR

well imma gonna guess the first pic is true splendida next2 splendidas w/remnant califoniae seeping thru,,3rd californiae w/remnant splendida pattern seeping thru and last one a a nigritus and or melanistic splendida,,dont really know ranges on a hunch id say somewhere between bigbend and the pacific ocean though, on a side note frank i met larry valentine this w/e at the eths expo and he spoke very highly of you heres a pic of a splendida i picked up this w/e from tim cole,,,,,,,thomas

Nice, I wish I was there. I have known Larry since he was a little kid, Hmmmmmmmmmm, ok, since 1968. He wasn't little then either. Hes a great fella. We have had lots of fun during our lifes.

I will wait until later to explain these kings, but there is without a doubt a point I will try and get across. Thanks FR

I can't quite see enough of the head.

My guess is....
Arizona Splendida, Longnose and Nigritis......
John Lassiter

Although I can't make out the detail in some of the pics. Is the flash lite like beam part of what your getting at in some of the pics?

np

Yes, thats a longnose, good call fellas. But the rest are all splendida, Including the black one. They are all from the exact same spot.

Forgive me, but at times I cannot see how or why many of you discribe animals the way you do. That is, there is no Calking or yuma(nearest population of other kings) They are as they appear above or various degrees of black, to like whats pictured, pure black.

To help you understand this, this population does not overlap with Yuma kings or cal kings, therefore there is no intergration.

I think many of your may not understand the basic pattern types, that getulus display. All the subspecies have about the same variations. Banding, blotching, striping, speckling, checkered, etc.

These patterns are controlled by the habitat, not by intergration. In the population of kings I displayed, the habitat allows more sidebanding then other populations.

In southern Ariz. Splendida is a mid-elevation grassland animal. As they near the edge of sustainable areas, they do display slightly different patterns. For instance, this population is at the very very western edge of the southern ariz grasslands.

What seems to confuse many here is, In the Tucson area, there is a mishmash of patterns. This area may indeed display intergration. As the Santa Cruz river basin is used as a kingsnake corridor from the southern populations of splendida. The Rillito river basin, is and east west corridor for both Cal kings and Splendida. With the artificial farmland habitats of Avar valley, being a corridor for Yuma patterns. The Yuma pattern migrated along the Gila River drainage.

Anyway, what sort of scares me is, most seem to discribe them as to their understanding of captive breeding projects, and not the snakes actual abilities and natural restrictions. Thanks FR

>> What seems to confuse many here is, In the Tucson area, there is a mishmash of patterns. This area may indeed display intergration. As the Santa Cruz river basin is used as a kingsnake corridor from the southern populations of splendida. The Rillito river basin, is and east west corridor for both Cal kings and Splendida. With the artificial farmland habitats of Avar valley, being a corridor for Yuma patterns. The Yuma pattern migrated along the Gila River drainage.

subspecies generally cause confusion, especially in areas where there is integration. I'm just curious about where those were from, especially the black one? ... and how anyone would tell the difference between a melanistic splendida and a nigritus anyway?
I'm not sure I could even with the snakes in hand.

Forks

Aren't Nigritis melanistic Splendida?
John Lassiter

>>Aren't Nigritis melanistic Splendida?
>>John Lassiter

basically yes, a getula is a getula is a getula, however, splendida can and will display various "phenotypes" such as banding on the sides and melanism, whereas nigrita generally are very dark overall and display only marginal traces of pattern. I don't have a lot of nigrita in the wild experience though, and what I have is only in southern Arizona (i.e. I've never seen a nigrita that looked like a splendida, but I have seen splendida that looked like a nigrita).

IMO that's why locality always enters the equation. I know Frank hates that because the animal is what it is regardless of where it is found, but to me it's a part of the natural history of the animal (it relates to what we know about it = another clue or small piece of information about the animal).

Photos are very difficult for me anyway, especially low res web photos. I certainly had the longnose pegged, but I kept looking at it's head which was chopped off and didn't look right. I was going to question it but decided to "wait and see".

Aren't the remnant traces of pattern on Nigritis that of Splendida?
Are they separate ssp. or is a Nigritis just a melanistic morph or mutation of Splendida? I think they have the same scale counts too if I am not mistaken....

Also....I really like the variability in longnose snakes, especially in Arizona...I have seen (in pics) striped, banded and aberrant ones that are dead ringers for calkings......
Cool little snakes.
John Lassiter

I'm not sure really how to answer that question, because the gest of it is "are they the same snake?" and if not "how divergent are they from each other?"

Are you familiar with any of the mtDNA work being done on New World lampropeltinine snakes? It's really interesting, though not fool proof. Workers like Bryson are able to recognize divergence between even Alpine alterna and Ft Davis alterna, habitats separated by 30 to 40 miles.

That's the big problem with our "labels". We like to be able to look at an animal and say "it is this" or "it is that", when in reality it is only a product of it's environment in the truest sense of that idea. These organisms are constantly adapting and evolving or they become extinct.

Splendida in Texas are found in incredibly different habitat types as you probably know, from Tamaulipan thorn scrub, sub urban creeks and fields around San Antonio, to Chihuahuan Desert around Langtry, to the higher elevation grasslands surrounding the desert in western Texas.

If I had to guess I'd guess that nigrita is divergent from splendida or both from a common ancestor in northern or north central mexico. But that would be all it is, a wild guess.

Forky

I totally agree with you Joe, that DNA will seperate all populations that have not interbred for X period of time. Which will make are newer books, three feet wide and we would all have to make different types of book shelves.

But what good is knowing there are 72 kinds of alternas, and 125 types of pyros, etc etc????? It surely will lose utility. FR

>>I totally agree with you Joe, that DNA will seperate all populations that have not interbred for X period of time. Which will make are newer books, three feet wide and we would all have to make different types of book shelves.
>>
>> But what good is knowing there are 72 kinds of alternas, and 125 types of pyros, etc etc????? It surely will lose utility. FR

I'll join the lumpers before I join the splitters. For now I just read what both have to say, keep an open mind, and try to learn a few things for myself

Maybe because they are the same same. As is banded and striped kings, as is, goini patterns and eastern kings.

In the case of black kings, they are found together, they have a range of totally black to a normal splendida pattern, they are the same. At least now they are. Maybe thousands of years ago they were different, originated from seperate stock, but now they are the same. FR

>>Maybe because they are the same same. As is banded and striped kings, as is, goini patterns and eastern kings.
>>
>> In the case of black kings, they are found together, they have a range of totally black to a normal splendida pattern, they are the same. At least now they are. Maybe thousands of years ago they were different, originated from seperate stock, but now they are the same. FR

That works for me, but those goini folks don't want to hear that I'm sure LOL!

This is all very interesting to me. You can make the same arguements for lepidus and klauberi, or at least HKM does.
You can illustrate two very different extremes within the group that you can easily identify by visual cues, but they don't hold up to any keys. Same goes for this group, I imagine.

All I know is, if you keep posting photos of those things I'm going to come look for them next year!

1. Yuma/Splendia
2. Splendia
3. Yuma
4. Longnose
5. Can't tell to dark

I would guess on your past post of where you are that these are all from the Tucson area. Maybe north by northwest of the city on the back side of the mountains in the the lowland desert. I saw alot of variance in the few we found in that area. Anyway Arizona kicks butt and I wish I was there.

Later Jason

We just kilt a bunch of em with a shovel! They was a chasin' the kids around the trailer with they tail up in they mouth.

-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Read the post entitled...."Sorta what John said"
John

Thanks for facing the fire & surviving the criticism & derision. I enjoy your posts.

Don
Vancouver, WA

Frank. I know you know your stuff. This was over my head. Sort of looking forward to the next installment of... Guess this snake... going to bed now....

Very, very nice splendidas and locale cal king. Last an mbk or one of those melanistic splendida, Frank? Thanks for the pics, send more!
Todd Hughes