Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Mark, what scientific evidence or publication or even annodotal information do you have that allows you to state, that Odatriad(dwarf, in your words)monitors are sterile? Please offer proof.

For the rest of you, I would think this subject is of great concern and importance for this forum. You should be concerned over a statement like this. I would think you would want to see proof.

So Mark, give us some proof, thank you, FR

He’s statement has just as much foundation as that of the 3 legged parentie, This is no personal attack but just my observation from reading his material, they all seem to be based from old literature, unfortunately outdated.

As for ackies being none fertile, I can understand about some peoples not supporting there charge properly enough for them to be successful, then attributing failure to animals being none reproductive.
In recent years iv seen in the Montreal region a 14 old kid successfully breeding and hatching ackies eggs, this with the help of his mother and these (your) forum, furthermore this summer I met a 78 year old grandma very exited about her ackies nesting. The funny thing is these are her first ever pets, they where given to her my her grand doter. This is what make this hubby such fun.

Thanks for allowing this to happen Frank,
sorry! I got exited

It has been shown to be wrong time and time again. I have seen plenty of people producing odatriads. Besides my own pair of ackies.

I don't keep any others so can only go from what I have seen others produce with them.

To me saying that is a cop out for taking the blame of not allowing them to produce in the first place. Certainly you may find some with problems but more then likely chances are the problems are caused by our lack of understanding or application of husbandry.

What about V. varius, V. mertensi, V. kingorum, V. gilleni, and V. caudolineatus?? Frank has bred many of those(at least six generations worth or more as he claims), yet I have yet to see many, if any of these bred by anybody else here in the US or Canada??

Of all those monitors, I would have to think that at least somebody would have bred them... Especially committed keepers, willing to shell out the thousands of dollars for them... But that is hardly the case...

Need.
Its not the lizards fault, they are not infertile. I have a female ackie that wants to drop eggs every month now, after the first clutch details that did not seem to matter did. Things needed changed and their care gets a bit more difficult.
First to consider that an adult Lacie ranges in size from 4-over 6ft, so to get a pair that gets along and keep them properly you would need big cages, alot of food, etc. So the average person who keeps them will spend $3000-$5000 or more each not including the cages, food etc. Can you start to see why these expensive monitors are not bred very often? Mertens are expensive also. Other species, hybrids FR has bred are bred by others, just not to many people. I think a big problem other than proper care is they force you to think, also they need commitment to get them from hatchling through adulthood and reproduction. Most monitor keepers have them 1 month to 1 year on average, combine with bad care its obvious why it doesnt happen much.
If the idea of inbreds or hybrids being sterile as Ive been told by so many people in this hobby, Id love to know who the idiot who started that one was, another case of improper care indeed. Flaviargus are hybrids, Sobek is a hybrid, 3 way crosses are hybrids, etc etc etc. Inbreds, Sobek is also inbred, all of her siblings are inbreds, yet I know she became eggbound at 1.5yrs old with 44 eggs, 5lbs worth. Every ackie in this country is inbred, etc etc.
These animals are not infertile, they need proper care to be able to reproduce, to be able to produce eggs, and sperm.

Simply because she produced eggs doesnt meant that they would have been viable. Meaning, a mule with cycle and come into heat, but it will not produce any offspring.

Im not arguing for either side, but just wanted to point that one thing out.

A sterile male does not produce sperm, so a sterile monitor is one that cannot physically reproduce, not like an animal kept in conditions that does not allow them to, thats not sterile, thats bad conditions, I for one can mention many of these Ive encountered by experience with many animals over 20 years inb this hobby on and off, especially with monitors, they make you think more than many other reptiles.
No, the problem with those who think their hybrids, and inbreds are sterile is they need to take a deep breath, step back and reevaluate their animals conditions, most cases thats all it takes.
Yes Sobeks eggs were not fertile, she was never kept with a male, she never mated, she tried to kill a few males, but never any breeding attempt, in fact she couldnt be left around a male alone at all, usually she went for the kill right away upon sight of them (4 males, I gave up, in fact the only male monitor Ive ever found she liked was a 5ft argus a friend had). Those ackie eggs in the picture are soon ready to hatch, they grew again over night, they are at 89 days now, heavy with blood vessels, I cant wait.

What evidence do you have that the great devoid of success that we generally see is all-husbandry-related? You seem pretty confident..

you have been here long enough, how many questions get asked on how to breed moniotors? How many people have come here not knowing females can and will produce eggs with or without a mate?
How many people come on here and can actually tell a male from a female? How many people still ask the same questions of how to feed, what to feed, how much heat, what about Uv, etc. etc.??

Need I go on or can I rest my case?

Again, as I replied to SHvar's post, of all those queries that we see all the time, how many of these "beginner" questions are coming from people asking about their V. varius, V. mertensi, V. gilleni, V. caudolineatus, V. kingorum.....

You are talking about two different 'classes' of monitor keepers there. There are the entry level keepers, and there are the experienced keepers(who are the ones shelling out the serious cash for the aforementioned species).

Who are the people asking the "how do I breed my monitors" and "can I feed my monitors turkey" questions... They aren't the type of monitor keepers who will be keeping the aforementioned species.

In this nation, or any financially advanced society in which an emphasis is placed upon acquiring possessions (monitors included), money and buying power does not always go hand in hand with knowhow, intelligence, or practical intentions.

I have seen multiple species past the thousand dollar mark bought at the local (pet store) level by individuals who had more than enough money to fill the capacious voids that were their monitor-maintenance capacities. And you expect offspring production from these people?

I am not saying that this doesn't occur. Yes, there are some people with money that will splurge on an animal they know nothing about. My point was, realistically, who makes up the majority of people who are keeping these "hi end" species; the species which aren't usually sold by pet shops, or other "beginner" markets?

The easiest one to look at would be sulfur water monitors. These are high end animals most are setup singly. A few are in pairs or atleast believed to be pairs. I myself have two but both ended up girls. A few others that have gotten them were snake breeders and then realized the space, time, etc. it takes for them and they have since been sold. There are only a small few I know of in capable hands.

You could also look at the albinos many of these are not in the hands of people to reproduce. They are simply show pieces showing off a one of a kind rarity.

So again price has little to do with getting into the hands of those who will be into breeding or capable of doing so.

If you want to know how many capable hands they made it to then you'd have to ask the breeder who he sold too. Or atleast how many people he sold pairs to that are capable of producing them.

Well seeing you moved from odatriad to mertensi etc. I can certainly move to specify all monitors.

You really think only "experienced keepers" are the ones shelling out cash to purchase these species? having money to purchase them doesn't make you experienced. That can only be learned from keeping them.

The people here in FL. with the most pricey animals are dealers not breeders you think they really try hard to produce anything? Even if they did you think the failure is to be blamed on the monitor hahaha in every case I know or can think of it is lack of experience or application of husbandry.

You show me one just one example of any of the species you mentioned proving them to be sterile by fault of genetics as you claim and not poor husbandry.

Not everyone that keeps monitors comes to these forums, especially experienced keepers that are willing to spend the dollars on rare specimens.

Read the posts..
"what do I feed? How do you breed them? how do you know they are male or female, what is better to feed them? Can I feed them this or that? Why did my monitor die? Why is my monitor sick? Why does it sleep all of the time? Are nile monitors dwarfs? Can I use carpet, or whatever as substrate because its clean and neat to me?
Do I need to go on and on? Ive been answering these questions now for a few years on a few forums, they never stop, why, basic husbandry is that bad, so why havent we seen much of any monitors reproducing in captivity in the average persons care? Hmm, can I answer your question any clearer, or more accurately can the average poster answer your question by asking theirs?

Of those posts that you are always answering, how many/what percentage of them are referring to V. varius, V. mertensi, V. kingorum, V. caudolineatus, and V. gilleni(any of the species that I am talking about)????

How many have pairs? Not many..
How many who spend that much money on those species are by that point posting to ask these questions? not many..
These questions I refer to are about all species in general, not just a few. Its not about some species, its about all species in captivity and their available husbandry. Why is it that more odatria are bred in captivity than any other species medium or large? That easy as I said, they require alot less of everything in general to be sucessful.
Regardless of what anyone says, it seems that to this day initial price to purchase the animal seems to be the biggest initial factor in the animals future husbandry, why is that, although most keepers of bosc and nile monitors say otherwise, look where most of them end up in 1-6 months, down the drink.

Well, according to Frank himself, he has produced at least six generations of all the species of monitor he has kept and bred(not to mention thousands of clutches), including the species which I have called attention to. To me, especially due to the fact that his animals multi-clutch, on top of those six generations, that would make a lot of babies. Where did they all go? It's hard to believe, of ALL those monitors(hundreds, if not thousands) that were distributed into the pet trade, that nobody has hatched out any/many at all?

Statistically, I would think that somebody would have hatched something by now..even if it was by sheer luck..

The Europeans(mostly the Germans and Dutch) have been keeping and breeding V. kingorum, V. varius, V. mertensi, V. caudolineauts, gilleni, etc., as well as the species that are commonly bred over here(ackies, pilbaras, tristis, kimberlies, storii), for over a decade now(several species much longer than that). There are MANY people experiencing regular, consistent results over there. Captive bred specimens of all these species are and have been relatively commonplace within the hobby over there for many years now.

Why have the Europeans had such great consistant success(from a wide range of keepers, from different countries), when compared to these species only being/having been bred/originating from Frank here in the US???

What makes us Americans so much different than the Europeans? Are we incapable of seeing the same success? Are there no devoted hobbyists here in the US?? Is there absolutely no skilled keepers over here capable of hatching out these species? I don't buy it.

This adds to my suspicions that I have, of US captives(of the species which I have mentioned) potentially having something wrong with them, whether it is genetic, or something that is happening to them during incubation/devlopment.

Maybe Frank lives underneath an electrical tower or on an old A-bomb test site... hahaha - joking....

Theres no genetic deficiancies, its husbandry deficiancies. In Europe the average WC monitor cost alot more than here, this is the first factor that makes a big difference, with CB its similar, people get in a mind set, they want to live off of a book they bought in a petstore, its the monitor bible you know. Maybe its with our tendency in society towards instant satisfaction, agriculture and the regular keeping of animals sucessfully disappearing.
Oh by the way the sucess that you mention in Europe is not so wide spread, in fact they get WC species there we cannot get at all. They have some sucess, not so much as you believe, there are a few people getting regular breeding to occur. The one thing that catches my attention about European monitor hobbyists, they dont have access to red ackies, such a commonly bred species here, they have access to yellows, but every year on some forums Europeans are asking for many species that are not available in the CBB monitor hobby there, in fact those are the keepers that will tell you that CB monitors arent so wide spread in Europe. They always ask if US breeders can send them animals, this requires extra work, therefore extra expense, its possible if they are willing to pay. Dont believe the hype about Euopean monitor breeders and how widespread their sucess is. Compare to those who regularly breed them her and in Canada, they are not so sucessful. Id say access to zoo offspring, imports, and other factors also allow for differences. I know in Europe a bosc or nile is many times the average price here, they are WC also.

Not many people breed V.glauerti or V.pilbarensis. Does that mean they are sterile?

The notion that a non-hybrid species that exists in the wild would even be considered sterile is absurd. If it was sterile it wouldn't exist. I would assume individual animals in all species, including humans, are indeed sterile but it would be the exception not the rule.

One picture of a baby "dwarf" hatching is all the proof that is needed to dispel the sterile theory. If you have never seen a picture of a baby Odatriad hatching I'd be glad to send you some. I am sure Frank has a few thousand that he could send you as well.

BTW V. kingorum, V. gilleni, and V. caudolineatus are being bred in the US, Canada and Europe. Heck there is an amelanistic strain of V.kingorum that is being produced with ease.

Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Jason

np

How many prasinus do you have? Are you willing to spend thousands on monitors? How many prasinus have you produced?

Such anecdotal 'evidence' could be used to say 99.99% of monitors in the U.S. pet trade are sterile.

We all know (or should know) what happens to a vast majority of the monitors, they die from keeper mistakes.

--Robert

For the record, I have 2.1 V. prasinus, 1.1 of which I have had for only 5 months , and eggs from that pair which have been incubating for 2.5 months now, with hopes of having them hatch. Yes I am willing to spend good money for animals that I am fascinated with and on their upkeep.

I think there is a big difference between comparing breeding wild caught adult monitors, and captive bred individuals; ones which have been bred regularly in captivity for 6 generations. But that is a bit off topic. We are talking about the CB animals which exist in North America today, not wild caught indonesian monitors. Would you say that getting your jobiensis to breed and lay fertile eggs is as easy as your ackies??

I just find it interesting, that of the THOUSANDS of monitor clutches that Frank has claimed to have hatched over the years, that we see such a poor representation/no representation of several of these species being bred in the hobby nowadays/ever??

And for the record, I don't think odatria monitors in general are sterile, as there is obvious evidence against that, both locally and globally, therefore I do not agree with the original post entirely. I do feel however, that there may be some issues with fertility among the US captives, whether it is genetic in origin, or developmental/incubation in origin(high incubation temps have been shown to cause reproductive deformities in other herp species).

The numbers just don't make sense to me...

I meant to say,

"I do feel however, that there may be some issues with fertility among SEVERAL SPECIES IN US COLLECTIONS, whether it is genetic in origin, or developmental/incubation in origin(high incubation temps have been shown to cause reproductive deformities in other herp species).

Of course, I am referring to the species that are poorly/not represented by CB offspring(other than Frank, and maybe a select few others), and not V. acanthurus, tristis, storii, glauerti, and pilbarensis. Just thought I'd clarify that before I got tore apart.

" I do feel however, that there may be some issues with fertility among the US captives"

Exactly, they are unable to reproduce because their keepers care does not allow them to. Its not fertility from genetics, it fertility from husbandry, they do not produce eggs or sperm unless they can with proper conditions. Unless of course you have their ovaries removed, then they cannot, of course you do see a few other changes in those who have been fixed after the operation.

Infertility: The diminished ability or the inability to conceive and have offspring.

This can be caused by a broad spectrum of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with how they are kept in captivity.

If so, show they are unable by getting this proved by some experienced herp vets, and by those who do have regularly reproducing animals, and the same species under the same conditions not producing. Its not from being hybrids, or inbreds, these animals do reproduce, many if taken from those keeping them with no sucess and placing them with those who suddenly keep them right. My female ackie was one of those "infertile monitors", she was sold to me cheaply from a trio by a couple of guys who had no clue what they were doing, she was the best example, she was not obese, she had all of her toes, and the least amount of missing claws, also a lump from calcium deficiancy in her jaw. Just imagine, I havent described the male or other female. I was told by these guys they were fed almost exclusively a mix of unsupplemented crickets, and San Diego zoo turkey diet, they did say she had eaten a few pinkies and fuzzies before they were brought to the show. 3 weeks in my care she lost the lump in her jaw, and was so much faster, alert, and was growing. A few months later she started to cycle and lay eggs.
As I said those who belive they are sterile animals need to step back, take a deep breath and reevaluate the animals care, most times it comes to you, sometimes it takes some help.
Why are so few BTs, niles, waters, crocs, etc being bred in the US? They are all large species, almost exclusively WC, because they require more of everything their smaller conterparts need, how many provide properly for those needs, with pairs and trios that multiplies?

That statement was, all the "dwarf monitors are sterile" which should have said, odatriad monitors, because many such as ackies or tristis, or kimberlys are not dwarfs by any means.

So you including varius and mertens, is out of context. But if you include lacies, I would ask, why hasn't bronz zoo produced theirs, they have two pairs now, and lost a pair a while back, and are actively trying to breed them. I know, because several of their keepers came to my house to ask questions and look at my animals. They, bronz zoo, have also produced so many mertens that they stopped on purpose. You really should join up with Mark and do some research. Thanks FR

I made no mention of 'dwarves' or 'odatria' in any of my posts. I was commenting on what I believe Mark meant by his post, in that there are several species which you have bred for many generations(at least 6 as you claimed), that are poorly represented/not represented in the hobby, as in, nobody/virtually nobody is breeding the species I mentioned.

Its true several of the smaller species did not stick in captivity(in the states), but that had nothing to do with being sterile. ITs far more to do with how they appeal to keepers. In that, I would agree, the mass of U.S. keepers are stuck on largeness.

But that will all even out. Like the past in Europe, when the costs get prohibitive, our likes will change. When a large rat costs $50, and a large monitor will eat 5 or 6 a week, then small monitors are going to start looking really good. While that is very simplistic, its simplistically true. FR

If you want to know the differences between w.c. and c.b., you'd be better off asking someone who has successfully bred both, Rsg and Frank come to mind.

The difference I see between jobis and my c.b.'s doesn't have to do with cycling, it has to do with social stuff and mistakes. I can (and have) screw up ackie, argus and goulds clutches, and the lizards pull through (at least mine have). The jobi females only seem to tolerate one or two mistakes, and then it's into the freezer.

I am unfortunately exactly the reason why there is little breeding, I am willing to spend alot of money on monitors (I've never spent 1k on one though), have two species of odatria (one of which you specifically mentioned), and have not bred anything. I've easily killed over a hundred eggs. I readily admit I suck, but I'm not that different from the norm (sadly). The state of varanid husbandry, not sterility, is a much more logical reason for the lack of breeding.

All I ask is one person who has been moderately successful to state that most of their odatria are sterile, I don't see that, just people that haven't bred anything.

--Robert

Again, I am not stating that "odatria are sterile". I am saying that certain species that were originally bred by frank, have failed to carry on and have failed to produce here in captivity.

Find us one other person who has bred V. varius or V. mertensi besides Frank, or find us anybody who has consistently produced other species that I have mentioned...(talking about animals originating from FR), as we regularly see with V. acanthurus, tristis, pilbarensis, glauerti.....

Varius and mertensi are in the hands of few. Some of which are kept singly, some in pairs, some in the wrong hands, some in capable hands. So how many do you think will be popping up??

BTW there are some mertensi in the classifieds for sale right now. hmmm

Because you paid $$ alot doesn't mean your intentions are to breed them or that you are capable of breeding them. It simply means you had the funds to get them.

There are many prasinus in captivity where are all the babies at? You have them yourself do you not?? Are yours or the rest sterile? I think not. Come on your smarter then that atleast you usually talk as if you are.

Those mertensi in the classifieds are NOT available.

I was interested and also suspicious because the person who posted the ad has been posting pics (the same pic used in the ad) on various forums, of the lone male mertensi he just aquired . Obviously he was not producing them. You read the same forums, so you should know that, shouldn't you??? Hhmm...

I inquired about them. The fellow who posted the ad was trying to raise funds to import 10 mertensi from Germany. He has not had enough interest to get the funds together in time. You will notice the ad is no longer there.

Hy,

that's funny! Did I understand it right? He claims to be importing mertensi from Germany? There are only 2 persons I know of who are constantly breeding mertensi. Both have quality animals and they are very nice persons who both pay a lot of attention to who they sell their animals to. I just can't believe that they would sell their monitors to someone unknown in the USA. Furthermore I'll be surprised if he'd find a third breeder with 10 juveniles for sale.

Would you drop me a message if you know from whom he would buy the mertensi?

Greetings,

Timo

Kind of harsh words don't you think?

I said "BTW there are some mertensi in the classifieds for sale right now. hmmm"

You just stated they are for sale in the classifieds as you replied about them. So how was I wrong about them being in the classifieds then?

The person in question has little to do with the fact that they are being advertised and are being bred. I know he did not produce them himself as your right he just got his male and has no female. I never stated he produced them bred them I just said they are for sale in the classifieds. You just said they are legit although they are not from the US. Obviously they were not sterile.

So do you have anything to offer about the subject in hand? Do you believe mertensi, varius, odatriads are sterile?

Infertility can be induced by a number of factors. I find it strange that the individual who focuses on African monitor species and the words about them would suggest that infertility is a problem that predates the little guys with prominence. Big monitors clearly have higher rates of infertility (in captivity).

Ontogeny is the crucial time between initial organismal development and maturation. During this time frame, the primary production is in body mass, which herps are pretty efficient at (insofar as energy conversion is concerned). As age towards maturation increases, you get an increasingly disproportional acceleration in the development of the reproductive parts n pieces. This is the time during which the organism's reproductive functionality can be significantly influenced.

You know that you have sent many Odatria to new homes where they will be effectively sterilized through a keeper's sabatoge of the latter stages of ontogeny. When a monitor can't get proper heat, or nutrition, or even a sense of living in a habitat that provides securities and the stress thus avoided, sterility ensues.

What is amazing about monitors is that this can be reversed and overcome, to an extent. Get an animal that's not "too far gone" (I don't know how else to define such an unstandardized "measurement", and that infertility can be turned around. An ackie example was posted in this very thread. With any group of organisms, some will come out duds, but this, as your post suggests, is an astronomically insignificant proportion such that it would not be measurable with consistency in the "small" number of Odatria you produce. Nature made sure to refine heterosexual internally-fertilizing reproduction long before it designed neat lizards with forked tongues. With regards to pointing at a genetic basis for sterility, that seems quite silly before a necessarily huge sampling of male and female reproductive systems are inspected in all stages of their cycles. This would be the only way to be certain that the "sterilities" were true, and not just incomplete cycling stimulated by improper management. Based on the absurd number of recipes followed for keeping monitors, there wouldn't even be a way to standardize such an inquirey.

So it seems we have to figure, sterility is largely keeper-induced and can prove a temporary state, in monitors at least. Perhaps the reason why Odatria were targeted by such a comment was because they come across as easier to produce since you and some others do actually submit proof of their viability, while so many more individuals fail with their specimens? Whereas, with the larger Afro and Indo monitors, you have a much more consistent success rate - it's near zero.

We know that many herps, not just monitors, reproduce much better outside in pens within the natural range. Why? Because it is much simpler on the keepers - they don't have to reason about most of the ecological parameters that help them fail here in the states.

I need to get better about "proof"reading my post before I post, at least when I submit them late at night. When I said "you" have a near-zero success rate with Afro and Indo monitors, I meant everyone, not you. There are white throats and crocs from the American southwest that would argue failure on your part.

I don't understand why a quote mark and a parenthesis brought up that smiley face. I hope it made everyone feel snuggley, just the same.

African monitors that I have worked with are by far the most fertile. It took me 10 years to receieve my first infertile egg, all the rest were fertile and hatched. And yes, I have tons of pics to prove it.

Also the use of continents to seperate monitors is naive and useless. One of the most widespread captive bred monitors in the U.S. is indo in origin, The Argus monitor, V.p.horni. Has someone decided its not indo.

Also, several people have long term breeding projects with other indo species, Timor complex monitors. That fella at Bronz zoo, bred true timors for many generations privately and at the zoo. As did Patrick N. from the midwest. And others as well.

The young beautiful Tracy(goon) in Canada has bred the holy beans out of Rudi's, and she knew little of monitors. How did she do that? with luck??? No sir, a little coaching and her wonderful gut feelings. She believe her feelings about what monitors wanted and not what she was told about them. My coaching was, to keep believing her own feelings and not listen to what the Marks and others who failed had to say.

I do not know your name, but you like so many others, surely seem to want to make it complicated in order to defend your failures. All sizes of monitors are easy and from all continents(they occur in) The problem is, Varanids are work. consistant and demanding work. The larger ones are more work. AS in wheelbarrows of work. Smaller ones are less work, but are smaller and fall to errors in judgement faster(less mass) There is no magic to it.

If you or others wanted to talk about the problems, we could dicuss that most people do this for fun, and some species of highstrung monitors are not fun. So people do this for visual joy, some individuals and species are not a joy to look at. Some people do this for a hobby, but find out they are like MG's(old brit car) they can turn out to be a job, not a hobby. Many many people that turn to monitors think they are like snakes, cheap, easy, not time comsuming, small cages, etc. and are shocked to find out, they are not snakes, but instead more like birds(big mess) saltwater fish(costs lots of money) and lots of work.

The problem is, you fellas who want to be all smart and highly educated do not want the problems to be such simple uneducated things like the above, you want them to be highly complicated mysterious unsolveable problems. Things you can address with theory, But guess what, they are not, they are the simple problems.

All and all, monitors are easy, but monitor people are not. That sir is the problem, its not about species or size or countries, its merely that monitor people have a history of failure and history is a hard trend to break. IT took non monitor people to come in and lead the way. Thanks FR

"The problem is, you fellas who want to be all smart and highly educated do not want the problems to be such simple uneducated things like the above, you want them to be highly complicated mysterious unsolveable problems. Things you can address with theory, But guess what, they are not, they are the simple problems." -FR

That is so true in so many areas of academia.
-----
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

I am glad that you have had such success with African species, and I have known this for a long time. That sets you apart from the bulk of African monitor keepers who have no success. I'm also glad you have tons of pics. Post them with greater frequency. They would be more enjoyed by us than by your computer's drive space.

You misunderstand my use of continental segregation of monitors. Most of the big import monitors come from Africa and Indonesia; this qualifies the two regions for a predictably (and witnessed) low success rate, even though it's not the monitors' faults. Whups, lots of Odatria come from Indo. Still, their low price as imports discourages many dedicated explorers from working with them. Also, Argus are technically an Australian species (by relations). Where is the remainder of the panoptes complex found, in Sulawesi? The Argus are the ones that got stranded when sea level crept back up. But, that is categorization based on geography; that is not what I was doing and, yes, is useless here.

That is good, albeit very isolated, about the rudicollis breeding. I don't remember that. I assume her inclinings were based on a bottom line understanding that monitors, as environmentally-strapped critters, need a few crucial parameters to be met before a march towards success can be made. If this is where she started, or what you "coached" her on, it is sharing the direction of my post's point. Where you got that I was stressing the opposite I have no idea.

If you don't know my name, how do you know of any successes/failures I may have? Based on my long-windedness or by my not having bred as many ackies at my goanna ranch as there are mosquitos in Louisiana? Not everyone who posts something other than parroting idolatry in response to you is trying to undermine your knowledge or what you present as basic simplicities. You don't take the tone here as wanting to know who I am, in which case you might similarly refrain from judging me.

Are you serious about the "wanting to be all smart and highly educated" thing? This is what you took from my post? I was giving what you asked for - proof - by way of an overwhelming un-success rate for the aforementioned large Afro and Indo monitors as shown by keepers everywhere in the states. That is in contrast to the Odatria theory that started all of this, but that was my point. Put simply, people don't often provide for the basic needs of the big species because it's impractical. Only they don't realize this before they experience the animals. They buy little ones and raise them in ways that disrupt ontogeny. Then they come here without the greatest inclining of interest in the animals' bottomline biologic demands and want to know why things aren't working out. How does that qualify me for your "wanting highly complicated mysterious problems" category? Reread the last part in my first post, please. I think that may clarify your misunderstanding. Thanks.

I like saying that to someone who writes smartly. It makes them mad. But its true, You indicate that I am judging you. I do not jugde you, or anyone here. Again is much simplier than that. I can only judge what you write. I do not know you, I only know what you write.

What I look for in your writing is something meaningful(like anything I read)(or something entertaining, which is mostly what you get here). Then I look for something to support those meaningful words. They almost never go hand in hand.

Most here is theory, when so much has been done, you can understand why I hate theory. Even your argus statement is theory, as I read somewhere that most of australias larger monitors evolved from the gouldi complex and the gouldi evolved from argus, and argus migrated from indo, which makes them an indo monitor. But then I only read that, can't even remember where and its of little importance to what I do. Also, most odatria evolved from the timor group. Except that dang eremius critter, great little monitor that is. But again, if I read or understood any of that right or if its right at all, its not appliable and meaningless to my keeping of monitors. Its merely entertainment.

Without knowing who you are, or what you have done, I cannot get a handle on whom I am talking too, which takes a serious conversation out of the picture. You see, its only a picture I see, a picture of words thats on my screen. Is that picture you?

The subjects you bring up and shadow(no decisive statements) are old and have been brought up before(to no avail) So, to me, they are boring, same old, same old. When something gets boring, I have to apologise for this, I do not give it any real thought or investigation. As in, been there done that. So if your throwing a curveball, put it over the plate, as I will not swing at it.

Now, as you make yourself sound very smart or wait, better yet, educated, I will bring up what I have said many many times before. The key to breeding monitors, any species, is simple, its not temps, or substrate or nesting, or diet. Its much simplier then that. Surely it has nothing to do with continents or countries. Its directly related to the keepers. Monitors are the most simple of reptiles. They do not need a temp, give them a range, they do not need hibernation or brumation, give them a range, they do not need a specific diet, give them a mouse or a frog or any dang whole prey item(including plants) Ok, I am getting closer now, what they need is, a stupid keeper, a keeper that does not think they know what they are doing. A keeper that is more of a butler, and provides what they need when they need it. This is Goons secret. You know you don't even have to do a good job(goon and I know this) just provide. The problem is, all you smart guys/gals, thing you have to know something, specially those dang academicians(nuts), but even beginers, they read something, then state they know it! how funny is that????????? The funny part is, the IT, is not the words, but the animal. They academics may know the words, but do they know the it? The words are just so many flys flocked around the butt of a bull. Butt I wander.

The key is the ability to make decisions and NOT get stuck with what you "think" you know. Please I hope your keeping up, are you? You see, its simple but complicated, and I am admiting to writing this in both a simple and complicated manner. Monitors are simple, very simple, in phyiscal needs, but very complicated in behavioral needs. That line of thought, overlaped with the thought that actual experience is different and not related to theoretical knowledge of monitors.

That is, academics, has formed an enity they call varanids, that enity has grown and developed into an almost living creature, but theres a problem. ITs not a creature, and unfortunately, the academic understanding of varanids is unrelated to the actual living monitors. You do see that the smarter(accomplished) the academic, the less success they have with living creatures. The reason is simple, academics live by their rules, that is plain to see, and they refuse for the life of a monitor to break those rules. Too bad its not by their life. I am sure if it was, they would make different decisions.

The sad part is, there are no rules, those rules are only academic paradigns. So in much simplier terms, academics, handcuff themselves. Sounds kinky huh?

Back to simple, for beginers and academics, its not about knowing, its about applying and making decisions. Sir, thats what makes monitors so much fun. Everyday is a new day. What you thought you knew yesterday, is slightly different today.

It seems monitors have fun being contrary, but so do you and I. Cheers FR

Hahahaaa, I thought I would return that adorable attempt at spiking blood pressure in a cholesterol-conscious nation. Did I ruffle any chest feathers? Probably not, since this forum has seen just such a response, only serious, many times before. I know it has to be a downer, investing all of that love, care and time into typing up your insights only to watch them hit a wall. I guess that’s what you get for posting on a forum where you say all monitors need stupid keepers, teehee.

You share an interesting take with regards to monitor keepers being better off info-ignorant, although I think it has to do more with a lack of general ability amongst most herp keepers to differentiate usable info vs. random data. If everyone read and comprehended a herpetology textbook’s chapters on squamate physiology and ecology, perhaps we would see more across-the-board success than we do with the attempted interpretation of species-specific wild temp measurements and habitat analyses (which are up for a huge margin of error, i.e., the analysis of the individual who wrote them) and care guides. Then (in such a perfect-world scenario) keepers would understand the difference between set-point temps and “what should basking temps be?” But again, that’s a huggie kissie scenario and you did already point it out as unrealistic. I guess your take on keeper dunces as a benefit of captive monitors is more practical than expecting everyone to have good skills of info interpretation followed by proper application.

In the case that I post on this forum again any time soon, I’ll give you an idea where my writing is directed from. I pleased Argus into full-cycle success throughout high school. The opposite occurred with the mangroves, as they in time found one another’s claws to cause infected lacerations inside each other’s mouths even though capacious space with paralleled provisions existed for them. So, while I try to pitch straight in my writing, I’m physically batting (what you referred to as the substantiating part) at 50 percent. I am not self conscious about this, as it is still significantly more successful than most people who have posted on this forum but a couple dozen times over the years. When I went to college, I chucked the successful monitors and ascended to my newfound religion of academic all-smart-and-highly-educated-ness, haha.

I would have likely posted more had I worked with more monitors. My opinions on the ones I succeeded with would have been old news. My opinions on the others don’t really matter, since they resulted in one another’s deaths (how Shakespeareanly romantic!).

The only posts I have made recently were in the hybrid thread and this one. You see, neither of those threads is restricted to discussion on basic captive husbandry. Both beckoned the inclusion of certain general biologic priniples (which are no more theoretical than the earth spinning on its axis) which I did throw in. Such is particularly the case with this thread. Why? You already knew the answer when you posted. If any of us had responded with something other than “no, they’re not infertile,” (what you call the same ole same ole info) it would have to be – gasp – musing based upon theory (which you hate). In all fairness, I should have entitled my initial response “Pick your poison.” I enjoyed your last response. From someone whose work (both in the field and in captivity alike) is fairly far-removed from monitors, this forum would be lacking without your advocacy for simplicity and the accompanying cruelty to any degree of science. Incidentally, we are still waiting for any photo presentation of flaviargus you might scare up. Thanks. Ben

I think what FR is trying to get through your head, with respect to monitor breeding, is: Those who can, do. Those who can't, tell others how to do it.

Ever heard the saying, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"? Your "knowledge" appears to be purely theoretical. FR's is applied. Who has had more success breeding monitors? Who do you think forum readers are going to learn more from?

Paralysis by analysis comes to mind.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Name for me, amoung others. Actually she called me, LDD. At least it started with lame. I took no offense at her or you.

I do find your style entertaining, and I hope others can learn from it or at least understand it.

So lets continue our search for answers to unanswerable questions. I do not think you need to be "info-ignorant" or uneducated, or any such thing. I just think breeding monitors is simple and not complicated or in need of thousands of theories. You know theories for the doing, and theories for the lack of doing, like the genesis of this thread, monitors being sterile. A theory for the lack of doing. Problem is, its done and is being done on a daily basis. So at least that theory stinks of olde fox urine.

Also I love theory, as what we are doing now is theory. But Theory has its place. And this is it. On the other hand, theory has no place in breeding monitors. Its been done far to many times and for to many species and to many generations to see some highly educated biologist sitting around talking theory on how hes going to come up with a method to do something thats already done commonly. Yes, that does have a ring of stupidity to it. Which brings up science or biologist. Many and you, think I have something against them. I don't. in fact, I love science and biologist. My best friends are they. Yes, I use science and logic on a daily basis. But understand, science and numbers predict, not all who call themselves biologists or scientist are indeed good at their trade.

Many of the individuals who have challanged me here are very smart, highly educated, but do not seem to understand a round peg, fits in a round hole, and a square peg, fits in a square hole(basis test for intelligence) I admit, they a surely are expert in one field, but its foolish to think because your expert in one field, that you would automatically be expert in other fields too. Don't you think? Particularly in a field you do not do, practice or participate in. To think your expert in something you don't do, is the upmost of theory. You must do it, to proove it. that is science.

Its this brand of science that I do not tolerate. Not science. Its this brand of biology, that I do not tolerate. To make it much simplier(science taught me to do that, simplify)(you know, break problems down to something you can understand) Science is, repeatable results from controlled tests. Yet these suedo-Sci/bios, go by what they have not seen, not what they have seen. They go by what they have not tested or done. Which is not science or biology, Its human bull buns.

Now back to breeding monitors, years ago, several of us formed a small group, by accident of need, we needed to learn. We hung out on these forums, we experimented, we tested, and all and all, we all because successful(to various degrees) with many species of monitors. Yet all the while, we felt the constant challange of sci/bio's telling us how bad and dumb we are, in other words, we are wrong allllll wrong. Yet, we all succeeded. All the while the Sci/bios, are sitting on their collective butts.

Well, RobertB has yet to hatch an egg, but hes made many hundreds of perfectly good ones, hes out to set a record or something. As life would have it, several have moved on to other things, like Rsg and Jefe.

Which leads to the point. During this time, Jefe and I had a heated discussion, OK, its was a warm discussion. He asked, FR, could you teach someone to breed monitors. Consider, this is after we all reached reliable successfull understanding. Jefe's view was no you cannot. I took offense as I thought I taught him!!!!!!! we discussed that and Jefe convinced me, that I did not teach him or Goon, or Rsg, but instead, I coached them. I coached them, I coached them. Now I was confused, remember, I am not the smartest person around. To teach, to coach, what the heck is the difference?????????? So I looked it up, well that did little good. So heres what we came to. To teach is to impart knowledge, skill or ability. So is to coach. I guess to teach does not imply that those skills are to be used immediately. To coach is normally done as the learner is doing or practicing those skills. So Jefe was right. I may not be able to teach someone to breed monitors, but sure as the sun raises in the east, I have coached many.

Any questions, AS you should understand, Part 1, FR

I haven't quite moved on, just taking a breather. I don't have the time to care for 50 monitors anymore and I lost my inclination to want to sell what I hatched.

I still have a dumeril's pair and go back and forth about letting her cycle.

Teachers munch on apples while coaches blow the heck out of whistles. No sugar-coating. Greater intimidation, since gametime will prove victory much more quickly and clearly than will waiting for the results on standardized tests. I'm suprised you missed that analogy, as you're normally pretty crafty at them.

I think it is that approach that has encouraged the majority of posters on this forum to either bite at your ankles or hang on your nipples (okay, maybe I should have just stuck with the first analogy). Anyhow, I do find the approach an interesting one, and, it proves a perpetual counter-consideration for me. Interestingly, success with the Argus came before I had read any monitor lit past some Balsai junk. Who knows, had I read anything substantial enough to consider/cloud my "method" at that point, I might never have even gotten a turd out of them, let alone, eggs and more eggs. And now I talk about whether they're Austro or Indo, haha. Thanks for the exchange.

You stated you have done more then most here. That is in error, at least by the limitations of your statements. You recieved eggs from an argus, that is commonplace and does not take much luck or husbandry to occur. It only takes a female argus. No male, no skill, only a female argus and some food.

Now did you hatch the eggs, raise the neonates and breed them. After all, you aquired a female, that takes money not skill. Please do not be offended, its true, just ask.

Remember, one of the ankle bitters, says he bred savannas in 1984, only all the evidence points to Ron Huffacker doing so. But even if he did, its been 23 years and nothing has followed. For a avid varaphile, to go 23 years without success, does not express skill, but more about luck. Actually really bad luck, because as I have mentioned many times, monitors, all species, do not need an event to lay eggs, they only need food.

So did you eggs hatch, did the offspring have differrent patterns? How long did it take to hatch the eggs?

About ankle bitters and sucklers, those are commonplace in all walks of life, particularly acadamia. So its no surprise they are here too. Thanks FR

I used the word eggs in that last post because I liked the turd/egg comparison. Both are round(ish) and come out of the same place, only true, there would be no difference between unfertilized eggs and excrement insofar as what begets them (food, as you said). Looking back on the phrasing I can see the problem it causes.

When I brought up my previous Argus in the earlier post, I said I (they) had achieved full-cycle success in them(selves). I wanted you to figure me for using this phrase in proper context. Meaning, nothing is fully cyclic till it goes around once, all the way. Until parents replace themselves and see that their progeny can do the same, no full cycle. In short, yes, reproduction of the purchase and of the F1 that came out of the purchase. Get to F2 and that's real success... er, the beginning of it.

I originally had three Argus and lessened to two once it became obvious that two were male. That was a hard thing for me to do. The two animals reproduced three years - one lay each spring, plus one clutch that was laid in the fall of the second reproductive year. I retained some specimens from the initial spring clutch, which actually turned out to be fertile – a very optimal first-time experience. Of those offspring I wound up keeping a male and two females (lucky that sexing Argus seems less ambiguous than do some other species, to me) which shared the same large room with the parents once they came of size to “safely” do so (i.e., as they grew up I had nowhere better to put the newcomers yet was too stubborn/irresponsible to get rid of them).

None of the clutches ever reached as many as a dozen eggs, and no clutch had a hundred percent hatch rate. However, the first clutch hatched out seven of the ten eggs laid, and the other clutches showed similar numbers with the exception of the fall clutch. It developed seemingly well until Dec/Jan, then crashed. I believe that since I never used a real incubator for any of the eggs but rather relied on the high ambient temps (28-30C avg.) on a protected upper shelf in the monitorized basement room, nightly temps consistently got too cold during that winter. One of the two female F1 reproduced the final spring I kept the animals. Similarly, the clutch was fertile and was able to hatch (as that final year’s clutches were not cleared from my possession when the adults were). It was laid a little later than the original female’s clutch and hatched later, too. The first clutch took a bit over half a year, 184 days. You always remember the first time, even when you’re in high school and too ignorant to know the significance of writing notes on an old calendar. The other three clutches that went full term similarly took a bit over half a year for the successful eggs to hatch. I didn’t keep any of the hatchlings from the F1 female’s clutch very long. I assumed the other F1 female did not reproduce that year because of subordinance in what was a well-populated room.

With regards to the appearance of the 29 total offspring (of which 27 lived past the freshest stage), there wasn’t the difference that we can see in your flaviargus, more nuance differences. The kind that you learn over the days to recognize, that one’s snout is just that much shorter, or that one’s spots read just that much lighter, until you can basically tell them apart through such little familiarities.

Now, the important part, for reason of your understanding what the info above means to me. I was indeed very excited to have “accomplished” (ushered) those successes when they occurred. Over subsequent years, greater inspection of both elaborate lit and other keepers’ experiences has brought me to understand that, unlike some of the reptiles with which I’ve worked, this one did not take a special method, as I didn’t have one set, nor would I likely have understood how to set one had I been informed to. The room worked for their comforts and they ate lots of mice with great eagerness inside it (to the point that it was like walking into a Deinonychus paddock every time I opened the door). It was very humbling to eventually recognize that they had not reproduced successfully because I had done everything right, but rather, because I had not done enough wrong, if that makes any sense.

So, luck? Yes. I happened to have hit the right points and I didn’t knowingly change them afterwards. Or, contrarily, I bought/hatched monitors that happened to like the parameters I was supplying. To me, your repeated success seems based on similar behavior. If the monitors are trying to get closer to the lights, lower the lights a bit or get more wattage. Then you have more comfortable monitors and get more of everything out of them. How “lucky” to have noticed that, rather than insisting on them basking at a keeper-selected mandatory temp.

I don’t feel like that history gives me any grandiose credential, but, you did want to know if I had achieved anything tangible. So, yes, a little. Not with a rare species or even one that’s bred less consistently, but it’s still a fond set of memories for me.

And you bred them, just like I breed all the species I breed. I simply did not do enough wrong to stop them. As you didn't. And yes, its not what you do to breed them, its how much you do to stop them.

One last error on your interpitation, you stated, you failed from dominance or subordinate behavior, I think not. One thing we keepers fail at is proportions. We increase the population of monitors, without increasing the proportion of food. Not only are we increasing numbers of monitors, we are increasing size as well. But somehow, we forget to apply that to amount of food. So divide the food, divide the success. Thanks for the great fun, FR

>>I used the word eggs in that last post because I liked the turd/egg comparison. Both are round(ish) and come out of the same place, only true, there would be no difference between unfertilized eggs and excrement insofar as what begets them (food, as you said). Looking back on the phrasing I can see the problem it causes.
>>
>>When I brought up my previous Argus in the earlier post, I said I (they) had achieved full-cycle success in them(selves). I wanted you to figure me for using this phrase in proper context. Meaning, nothing is fully cyclic till it goes around once, all the way. Until parents replace themselves and see that their progeny can do the same, no full cycle. In short, yes, reproduction of the purchase and of the F1 that came out of the purchase. Get to F2 and that's real success... er, the beginning of it.
>>
>>I originally had three Argus and lessened to two once it became obvious that two were male. That was a hard thing for me to do. The two animals reproduced three years - one lay each spring, plus one clutch that was laid in the fall of the second reproductive year. I retained some specimens from the initial spring clutch, which actually turned out to be fertile – a very optimal first-time experience. Of those offspring I wound up keeping a male and two females (lucky that sexing Argus seems less ambiguous than do some other species, to me) which shared the same large room with the parents once they came of size to “safely” do so (i.e., as they grew up I had nowhere better to put the newcomers yet was too stubborn/irresponsible to get rid of them).
>>
>>None of the clutches ever reached as many as a dozen eggs, and no clutch had a hundred percent hatch rate. However, the first clutch hatched out seven of the ten eggs laid, and the other clutches showed similar numbers with the exception of the fall clutch. It developed seemingly well until Dec/Jan, then crashed. I believe that since I never used a real incubator for any of the eggs but rather relied on the high ambient temps (28-30C avg.) on a protected upper shelf in the monitorized basement room, nightly temps consistently got too cold during that winter. One of the two female F1 reproduced the final spring I kept the animals. Similarly, the clutch was fertile and was able to hatch (as that final year’s clutches were not cleared from my possession when the adults were). It was laid a little later than the original female’s clutch and hatched later, too. The first clutch took a bit over half a year, 184 days. You always remember the first time, even when you’re in high school and too ignorant to know the significance of writing notes on an old calendar. The other three clutches that went full term similarly took a bit over half a year for the successful eggs to hatch. I didn’t keep any of the hatchlings from the F1 female’s clutch very long. I assumed the other F1 female did not reproduce that year because of subordinance in what was a well-populated room.
>>
>>With regards to the appearance of the 29 total offspring (of which 27 lived past the freshest stage), there wasn’t the difference that we can see in your flaviargus, more nuance differences. The kind that you learn over the days to recognize, that one’s snout is just that much shorter, or that one’s spots read just that much lighter, until you can basically tell them apart through such little familiarities.
>>
>>Now, the important part, for reason of your understanding what the info above means to me. I was indeed very excited to have “accomplished” (ushered) those successes when they occurred. Over subsequent years, greater inspection of both elaborate lit and other keepers’ experiences has brought me to understand that, unlike some of the reptiles with which I’ve worked, this one did not take a special method, as I didn’t have one set, nor would I likely have understood how to set one had I been informed to. The room worked for their comforts and they ate lots of mice with great eagerness inside it (to the point that it was like walking into a Deinonychus paddock every time I opened the door). It was very humbling to eventually recognize that they had not reproduced successfully because I had done everything right, but rather, because I had not done enough wrong, if that makes any sense.
>>
>>So, luck? Yes. I happened to have hit the right points and I didn’t knowingly change them afterwards. Or, contrarily, I bought/hatched monitors that happened to like the parameters I was supplying. To me, your repeated success seems based on similar behavior. If the monitors are trying to get closer to the lights, lower the lights a bit or get more wattage. Then you have more comfortable monitors and get more of everything out of them. How “lucky” to have noticed that, rather than insisting on them basking at a keeper-selected mandatory temp.
>>
>>I don’t feel like that history gives me any grandiose credential, but, you did want to know if I had achieved anything tangible. So, yes, a little. Not with a rare species or even one that’s bred less consistently, but it’s still a fond set of memories for me.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care