Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The pictures Peter keeps refering to as baileyi I thought were auriceps. I thought baileyi just were bluish with no yellow on the head. I thought auriceps had the yellow heads with blue dewlaps. Now I see one of Peters yellowheads I would swear was a auriceps does not have a blue dewlap. HELP WILL! hehe.

Baileyi is the one he is refering to, they are blue with yellowheads. Auriceps was changed to collaris so there is now two collaris. But the old auriceps is the yellow headed collared lizard, with a blue body and a yellow head. Even though they are both blue with yellowheads, the shades of blue and yellow are different, and I think the baileyi have less pattern on their head and body than the collaris(old auriceps). Personaly I like the baileyi a little better because there collaris are a little more vibrant and stand out more.

Morgan

I think they are all known as just C. collaris now- no subspecies of collaris anymore. There is a name they hang on these taxonimist that rename everything so there are no subspecies but I can't recall it now. They call the subspecies phases or raise them to species level. So a yellow head from Utah or western Colorado is know to those guys as C. collaris, auriceps phase. You should try to take a look at Grismer's book on Baja herps. He eliminated all subspecies and calls them phases or color phases or raises them to species level. A good example of raising them from subspecies to species level is seen in the spiney tailed iguanas. They used to be Ctenosaura hemilopha conspicuosa, C. h. nolascences, C. h. macrolopha, C. h. hemilopha. Now they are Ctenosaura conspicuosa, C. nolascences, C. macrolopha and C. hemilopha. I believe Gunther Kohler reclassified the ctenos but it could have been Grismer.

I can't even see baileyi being a valid color varient. I'll see if I can get my pals in New Mexico to start posting a sleu of Crotaphytus pictures for us.

John E.

and can have a yellowhead ! My Zuni lacks yellow on head Tom, but has the white dewlap with spotting instead of the blue dewlap like auriceps
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

had to clear that up,
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

There is an integrade zone in southeastern Utah where both C. c. baileyi and C.c auriceps meet. I baileyi I used to have were from South Central New Mexico. From all the New Mexico baileyi I have seen, the males got blue dewlaps, but only bits of yellow on the head and body. From the Eastern Utah region, I would assume they look identical to auriceps...they would still be integrades though, so could show traits or either parent. I doubht either trait is dominant.

I purchases a pair of collareds from Casey Lazek a few years ago that came from this area. The female that he collected was awesome...bluegreen body with a bright yellow head. I would have thought it was a male (much like Peter's female below). The pair he sold me were very neat. The male looked nothing like a baileyi or auriceps. I will really have to dig to find some old pictures of that guy. His body morphology was very baileyi, but his color was more blue than green. His head got very little color. The female I had looked like a typical auriceps female.

John

Here are the photo's of both "species".
Exept the difference in color, spots and dewlap there is also a big difference in shape and build.
As you can see on the photo's is the "auriceps" much bigger in shape. Specialy the jaws are broader.

The "baileyï" are more slender. I'm not telling that it is tru, but the body like more at the dickersonea or bisinctorus if you comper the shape with eachother.

Both of them are from Utah just as Johne is telling.
The difficulti of this, that there are places where they breed with eachother. (look at the link to mountainboomer)
Consequently who can insure you (if you have one) that it will be a auriceps, baileyï or a mix of those two ??
It wil be hard to tell. Maybe only when you caught them by yourself on the right location !!

To make it more simple; Both are belong now to the group called....... Crothaphytus collaris.
And like you Americans calling them....... yellowheads.

For me and all of the fanatics here in Europe..... they are lovely. As you see, I have both of them and I also going to mix them.

Have fun with the photo's
(sorry, if I spell some words not whrite)

"auriceps" male

-
-
"baileyÏ" male

-
-
"auriceps" female

-
-
"baileyï" female

mountainboomer

-----
.
.
.
The Dutchman........................Peter Bloemberg

If you do believe in nothing, there's nothing to believe in
------------------------------------------------------------

Dutch collareds site

Also in Englisch !!

but they look the same to me. Maybe just have to see them in person. That is probably why they took away subspecies. I know the bicinctores, vestigium, grismeri and dickersonae all have that different body shape than collaris and nebrius.

Those yellow heads from Will were pretty variable as well. The one that Tom had (Chaco) which Eve now has, has a very tiny snout. I think John Castellanos has a brother (Pee Wee) to Chaco and it looks a lot different. Body composition seems very variable between lizards of the same species.

As I was saying regarding color in the aquaflames too. The first year I went, I collected 3 males and 3 females. One male got absolutely no yellow on the head at all...mostley blue. Perhaps if one collected only those individuals with like characteristics (such as short snouts and robust bodies) with time these traits may breed true...who knows.

John

Before this thread I thought I knew what baileyi was--now I'm not so sure. Would anyone care to chime in on what he/she thinks Jazz and Peanut are if not baileyi?

Here's a pic of Jazz:

élan

-----
2.7.0 Collareds
1.0.0 Mali Uromastix
2.1.0 Green Anole
1.0.0 Chinese Dwarf Newt
1.1.0 California Newts
1.0.0 White's Treefrog
0.0.1 Green Tree Frog
1.0.0 Fire bellied toad
2.1.0 Felines
1.2.0 Canines
1.0.0 Equine

oh my gosh! that auriceps female is so precious, she has the tiniest nose!
-----
vonnie
***There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it. Mary Wilson Little ***

First to begin..... Just see all of this as a loud-thinking and my idea's. So it's not a attack and defenently not a wore.

I agree with Will and John. It's to hard to say what is what and where they come from if you'r talking about the collaris "sub-species". Long life J. McGuire

I also agree that natural sunlight and food wil do a lot with their colors.

As Will also wrote; The difference of the body-shape can do with two things. They are a mix of ??..... or food and habitat.
The last wil make a end of our surgestions.
The other point... we can talk untill we going to dream about it.

My idea:
If two species live close to getter and mixed up for a long time, then you wil get a lot of those mixes and maibe even a solid group of it around a area.
I wil not say that they become a different species, but only a solid group what makes the diffenrence and confusing us.

But to say; " they are the same,, I just can't.
Look at the new photo's and you wil see.

Both males are adult.
What I called "baileyi" is MUCH smaller.
on the second photo you see that the head of the baileyi is pointed and aslo have no dots. This al is the same with the females. I have:
-2 males, and 5 females of the "baileyi".
-3 males and around 10 females of the "auriceps".
With al of them, it's the same situation.

I almost sure that my "baileyi" is the same kind of some of Eve's yellowheads. (Kewanee, Shasta, Chinook an Apache)
I also almost sure if you comper them to Kong, they are much smaller. (the auriceps, collaris-fuscus and aquaflame looks like the same shape to me).

Again. This is only what I think and not what i say it's true.

Have fun with the photo's.
sorry for the bad color. The only way I could make a photo of the males togetter, was to get them out of their sleep.
otherwise they where to active and fight eachother to death.
(don't try this at home )
-

-
-

-----
.
.
.
The Dutchman........................Peter Bloemberg

If you do believe in nothing, there's nothing to believe in
------------------------------------------------------------

Dutch collareds site

Also in Englisch !!

a difference.

Hello,
This is the reason Jimmy McGuire got rid of the subspecies classes for collaris. Genetically they are the same lizards.
You will get variation of colors and shapes from the same populations. The orginal difference between C. c. baileyi and C. c. auricpes was that the yellow on the head of auriceps extends down the face and and below the mouth and connects to the blue dewlap. Most C. collaris in Arizona only have yellow on the top of their head. As you go farther north into Utah, the heads get more and more yellow. These were called yellowheads, auriceps. I once had someone tell me that they saw auriceps in this field and just down the street there was baileyi. I've see lizards on the same hillside that have different levels of yellow on their head. Some with yellow extending down below the mouth and others were the yellow doesn't go below the mouth. I agree with Jimmy McGuire that these two lizards are the same. One just has better color than the other. Most of the collaris from New Mexico to the west have blue dewlaps. Even some in Texas have the blue dewlaps.
The collairs that are from more eastern locals have a yellow orange dewlap. I do have a pure blooded male from Okla that has more of a blue dewlap than the typical yellow orange dewlap. There is too much variation in color within populations to classify
different subspecies based on these color differences.

There are a couple of other differences between eastern and western populations. Collaris from eastern locals seem to have wider heads and shorter snouts than collaris from western populations. This could be due to differences in their food source. I've always wondered if the more pointed snouts of the western populations were due hybredization of western collaris with populations of C. bicinctores or nebrius. It could be that they are just feeding on the same types of food.

Speaking of hybrids, nebrius has traits of collaris and bicinctores. I know a person who did genetic studies on collaris and bicinctores in Arizona. He found collaris genes in bicinctores populations from centeral Az all the way west to the Colorado River. I have seen collaris here in central Az that have a complete front collar under the neck, a trait that is not found in most collaris populations. Across the valley are populations of bicinctores.

Speaking of color, I have some friends that are doing studies on colors of collaris. They have found that the more drap collaris lizards, formerly know as C. c. fuscus from Southern New Mexico and Northern Mexico feed more on lizards than the brightly colored populations to the north. Could the cryptic colors help them prey on lizards? It makes sense because C. vestigium lacks the blues and green colors and feeds largely on lizards. Another theory is that in areas were there are less grasshoppers to feed on, collaris will feed on lizards. Since they are not eating as many grasshoppers they are not getting the cartoids from the greasshoppers that feed on the flowers, etc...

Isn't fun to think about!

Another thing to think about is that captive bred collaris seem to lose some of the yellow that there parents had. You can have pure yellowheads from Utah that have yellow down the face to the dewlap. Their offspring can end up with less yellow and it may not extend down to the dewlap. This wouldn't make them baileyi.

If you dropped a western lizard on its face and smushed its snouth a bit, that would not make it an eatern :O)

Great bit of information you've shared in your previous post. I'd love for you friends to figure out how to turn on and off those color genes with supplementation. I've fed lost of carotenoids with little color enhancement. Perhaps those chemistries are changed by the grasshoppers to a different precursor of some sort.

John

I really believe the loss of color in captive lizards has a lot to do with lack of natural sunlight. It is the same with chucks and the captive diets are higher in caratenes than the wild diet.

Hello my name is Martin (auriceps.nl ) from Nedherland.Too mutch U.V light will lighten up the collors to!!when given from too close!!The bleu will get lighter and the yello brighter.
HI EVE

Dang, been waiting to see you chime in here with your collared WISDOM, Nice to see ya!

Hows all those kids, any new pics for us to ENJOY? Have not talked in awhile, but sure glad ya stopped by, DON'T run away, stick around !

As far as the uvb lightening the BLUES at a close range, I had never heard that, so how far do you put your UVB from the lizards?
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Bleaches out those colors and brightens up those yellows. Sounds like a Clorox commercial :O)

Thanks for that input, Martin.

John

HI Eve,and everybody.
I use 100 watt powersun at 50 cm for 3 or 4 hours a day.And not every day.when ever I can ill put them outside in the real sun.I know someone he uses 160 watt P.S at 30 cm and his lizzarts bleu is verry light,but there yello is beautiful.Mine are more dark bleu,his are more yello.As soon as I learn too post photo's I will.

How do you like this ???
It grows up with a lot of UVB.

p.s wanneer gaan we vissen ?? (sorry is you can't read it)

-----
.
.
.
The Dutchman........................Peter Bloemberg

If you do believe in nothing, there's nothing to believe in
------------------------------------------------------------

Dutch collareds site

Also in Englisch !!

Thats not fair, hope it was NICE, (Lauging over here)
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

just asked him to go fishing.
-----
.
.
.
The Dutchman........................Peter Bloemberg

If you do believe in nothing, there's nothing to believe in
------------------------------------------------------------

Dutch collareds site

Also in Englisch !!

I like freash water fishing, have some nice rods and a gorgeous big canoe. Just have not gone in quite some time.

What do you catch?
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

it a wonder you have time for anything.

Funny Tom, Have you counted your chcuks lately? hhehehehehehe
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Isn't that one of mine Peter,his brother is more dark bleu.