Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As some of you may know, I run a herpetological society in the midwest. I was recently contacted about an animal found left to die in an apartment. Of course it was a ball python so I had to go over and get the sex before offering it up to the membership. I got about 4 scales from each side. Maybe he wasn't letting me in but more likely its just a girl. I figured I could take this animal. I told him I would compensate him so when we discussed price he asked what was fair.

We all know what female ball pythons can go for. This was about 800 grams but I didnt weigh it and I am bad at guessing. Anyway, I am taking the cage (which doesn't look bad) as well to make easy quarantine for me. The snake has some eye caps on and some skin in other places. But other than this..the snake appears in good health. I said 25$ and if the snake breeds for me down the line I will give him a little more then (safe bet for me right).

We know what I would pay for an 800 gram female BP but the thing is...I wouldnt pay it right now due to my focus being on a more scientific and educational side of reptiles (not the ball python morphs). But I will hook it up to a pastel if I can.

I cannot dish out fair market cash to every rescue I take in but I also want to encourage people doing the right thing for these animals. He said he was going to take it to a shelter but could not find a "no kill" facility. The herp society was the right place.

Opinions?

Who charges people to accept a rescue animal? I mean, isn't that one of the things we're told as kids "the reward is knowing you did the right thing"?

Chris
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0.2.0 Grey Rats-Lauren, Avril
1.2.0 Black Rats- Robert, Cady, Kylie
1.2.0 Albino FL Kings-Nick, Jessica, Ashley
1.1.0 Crimson Corns-Kane, Ruby
0.1.0 Het-Crimson Corns-Lola
0.1.0 White-Sided/Pos Het Albino Black Rat-Lita
1.0.0 Albino White-sided Black Rat-Rey
0.1.0 Fl King-Bonnie
1.0.1 Biak GTP-Brandon, Aru GTP-Orochimaru
1.0.0 Flame X Blood Bearded-Ruff
2.3.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie, Gretchen, Alexis, 100% het for albino balls- Naruto, Hinata
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor-Izzy

Thats not a rescue, thats a sale. I recently filled in for our herp adoption chair while she was on vacation. While she was gone I took in 2 large adult female boas, 1 Uromastyx and a Sulcatta tortoise. I did not offer, nor would I have given, any money for taking an animal off someones hands. As a matter of fact, we often charge people a $25.00 fee to take over abundant or especially hard to place animals. (Green Iguanas, Large Burmese pythons etc.) I kept these animals and fed them until our monthly herp society meeting at which time the animals were offered to all of the members of the society. (when I take in an animal as a rescue, it becomes the property of the herp society, not my personal property) Whoever feels that they want to take care of the animal has to fill out an adoption form and the animal then gets placed in the home of whoever the adoption committee feels is best qualified to care for the animal. Those two female boas are probably worth as much to a boa breeder as adult female ball pythons would be to a ball python breeder, but still the main goal is to place the animal with people who can care for it. The welfare of the animal is always of primary importance in a situation like this.

>>Who charges people to accept a rescue animal? I mean, isn't that one of the things we're told as kids "the reward is knowing you did the right thing"?
>>
>>Chris
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>>0.2.0 Grey Rats-Lauren, Avril
>>1.2.0 Black Rats- Robert, Cady, Kylie
>>1.2.0 Albino FL Kings-Nick, Jessica, Ashley
>>1.1.0 Crimson Corns-Kane, Ruby
>>0.1.0 Het-Crimson Corns-Lola
>>0.1.0 White-Sided/Pos Het Albino Black Rat-Lita
>>1.0.0 Albino White-sided Black Rat-Rey
>>0.1.0 Fl King-Bonnie
>>1.0.1 Biak GTP-Brandon, Aru GTP-Orochimaru
>>1.0.0 Flame X Blood Bearded-Ruff
>>2.3.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie, Gretchen, Alexis, 100% het for albino balls- Naruto, Hinata
>>0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
>>0.0.1 Savannah Monitor-Izzy

Ken
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1.0 Albino Ball Python (Apu)
0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)
1.1 Argentine B/W Tegus (Draco and Drucilla)
0.1 Columbian B/W Tegu (Diablo)
1.0 Black Throat Monitor (Razor)
1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)
0.1 Feline (CK)
1.0 Memory of my Redtail Boa (Mo) which passed away after 28 years

www.ocballs.net
kvandoren@ocballs.net

$20 per Snake. I adopted them from the Herp. society in my city.
These were top notch animals, Het. Albinos, Het. Pied 0.1, The youngest were 04's. I explained to her that even though the society only charges 20 per, she needs to be aware of people who are going to take advantage of this, people not really concerned about the animal, more about the $$$$. I offered to give her market value for the 2 girls, thats just how I am (old school)I felt I had to. She said no, I wasnt surprised.
Eventually I found out what had happened to the "high end" non adoptable balls, she kept the 0.1 Het. Pied, thats nice but Pythons are not her thing, it was the money talking. I had given her a loose lesson on the market pricing of these snakes and how much the Ball Python world has changed with all the new morphs.
Knowing I had a Het. Pied 1.0 she told me she would let me use the female and after 2 or 3 viable clutches of Pieds, and all
babies have been sold and the Herp Society has recieved their part of the "Donations" or proceeds I could keep the girl.
I told her she could use him I just wanted a Pied girl and the Het girl. They could keep all proceeds from the sales.
Breeding Season is coming up.....but i am not about to hold my breath for this long story short, when you do it for genuine love and concern for the animals the by all means do as you want. If your in it for the money, get out while you can because you'll eventually get tired of having to care for Hundreds of snakes. I care for my kids-35 Ball Pythons. Daily. That means water and substrate checks, handling them, i have 29 females, i want to keep the peace when eventually they breed and i get to collect eggs If you have the time and the "want" go for it.
Ok im done talking Its all out! If your still awake give yourself a well deserved pat on the back
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/01/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

That you only paid $25 for a rescued female Ball Python? Did you talk the guy down in price claiming the animal will most likely die soon due to health and neglect issues or something? If the owner was going to give the animal away (FREE) and you offered a bit of money ($25 more than FREE) where is the problem? The owner is happy. You are happy. The animal is happy.

I've given away (FREE) animals before to other beginner herp enthusiasts. It's good kharma.

Enjoy the animal.

Chris
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mean people suck

I don't understand folks that want to turn a profit because they are unable to provide for an animal. So,me disguis it as an adoption fee, which I feel is an abuse of the concept. It's one thing if it is a shelter, it is another if it is someone that is irresponsible.

If anything, he should pay you.

i agree
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

i agree with free snakes to beginners too, my first clutch when i start breeding will be gifts to all my responsible friends as a thankyou for dealing with me constantly bringing snakes into every conversation and dealing with my room being 85 degrees day and night.

but im only giving them to friends that i know will take good care of them and have the means to do so, the rest will go up for sale.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

Thank you folks for the quick responses. The reason money was involved was because he was going to try and sell the animal. When he originally contacted me it was to see if I could find a "buyer," but also get the animal to someone who knew more than himself. I did explain to him I needed to get a sex on it because it would drastically make an impact in peoples interest. On one hand it is a rescue, but his use of the word "fair" threw me a little off when I asked what he was hoping to get. I had only planned on compensating a little over what he had in it (just a few food costs which I would also imagined served as entertainment being he was a college student in an apartment with a few guys...note: which did not allow snakes). When I explained "fair" I considered this particular animals potential so I did say I would give him a little more.

Ultimately I want to leave people who turn over animal to responsible facilities and organization with a sense of it being "worth it." If he is left with a feeling like he took this thing on for too long and only got a measly 25$...they may not be likely to do the same again or continue to promote it.

Thats all. I just want to make sure I (and my organizaion) am leaving people with a sense of doing the right thing and feeling happy about it.

In my opinion, I see no issues with what happened... I've actually done the same once before - but in my case it turned out to be a male

If something like that happens again, I'd explain what "fair" means... in this case the animal appears healthy, but you don't know that for sure until you've had the animal for a few weeks.. there are some risks and such an animal is not worth top dollar (comparing with a healthy CBB 800g female that would of been kept in optimal conditions). So it's probably not unreasonable to offer $25 to take it off his hands. As stated by another post, the animal is happy, you're happy, the owner is happy.. what is there to question or discuss?

Good luck with her and hopefully you'll find a nice pastel to breed with her when she's ready!

Bristen.

As someone who does do rescues - IMO - you went about this all worng - a rescue is just that - you go pick up the animal evaluate and treat. There should be no money changing hands, the animal should not have been sexed and negotiations for money should never have taken place.

With that being said if there was no mention of how much he wanted from you to pick up the animal then you shouldn't have offered - at the point where you offer compensation - it becomes a sale and no longer a rescue it is an open ivitation for him to dicker for more.

When I get an animal referred to me and I decided I'd like to keep it I pay the reffering agency whatever their adoption fee is. Anyway - hoe this helps.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I wouldn't worry about what you would/did pay. The way I look at it is If someone needs to get rid of it and you rescue it then what ever you give doesn't matter. Just because the ball python market is over inflated right now due to all of the morphs plus when getting animals we all low ball prices. Then ad to the fact that you know nothing about a RESCUE animal. If both parties agree on a price then I wouldn't worry about who got a better deal. Thanks david
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Market value is not absolute. Value is a subjective term. Just because the AVERAGE (read: market) value for an adult female Ball Python is $300 does not mean your PERSONAL value should be $300. It may be higher; it may be lower.

For instance, the current market value for a Cinnamon BP is around $10K. If I was given the chance to buy one at the low price of $2K, I would pass. Why? I really don't value the Cinnamons much.

I'm sure you've heard the saying that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. It's also only worth what someone is willing to receive.

Chris
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mean people suck

The fact that if I was offered a cinnamon for 2k, I would take it if nothing else but to re-sale it....LOL....But I kinda like the cinnamons and what they produce so I would keep it. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

to be.
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

LMAO I agree! I just left that part out to prove the point. If I was ever offered a Cinnamon for $2K, I'd resell the snot out of it and buy a few Piebalds or a small Albino colony!

Chris
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mean people suck