Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a gray that is it's in own setup & is showing signs of a eye problem in one eye. It just started & what to stop it before it makes it blind. I have seen this happen to another gray in another setup & I did what I could & this frog now is blind in both eyes. It starts as a white film in one section or part of the eye & then covers the whole eye & then blind. Looks like skin shead , but , it's not & won't rub off. It then gets hard looking on the eye. I am trying the same thing with this new frog as I did with the old frog.....Novasan (sp?) & now trying salt. This is one part to twenty. I didn't help the first frog & I'm really worried about this other. She is so very special & I don't want to see her lose her sight. These two frogs have never been housed together & I have been careful about going from one setup to another. Want can I try ? Why is this happening ? I can maybe get something from the vet to give if it's a thing (bacteria) going on inside of the frog. I just need to know what to give or why this might have happen ? Local vet knows very little about frogs & nearest good frog vet is a hour & a half away & charges major bucks. Please some help if others have been through this & what to do ?

Thanks much,
Jennie

Consulting the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book by Wright and Whitaker, it appears that your gray treefrogs could be suffering from corneal lipidosis, keratitis or cataracts. All of which result in an opaque formation in the eye and are common in hylids. Chances are you are dealing with corneal lipidosis, a diet induced condition normally resulting from an excess amount of fatty acids and/or cholesterol. You give no mention of your husbandry techniques, but I suspect that you are possibly feeding the frogs too much, using improper supplements or not feeding enough diversity and relying on food items that may not necessarily be best for long-term health. The book also mentions in a couple of places that corneal lipidosis has been observed in greater frequencies of female frogs that have been in captivity for more than three years that have failed to oviposit in one or more seasons. It is not normal for the frog to continuously reabsorb the follicles and subsequently may lack the proper mechanisms for efficient reabsorption of the nutrients.

All of that mumbo-jumbo above tells you that you need to seriously evaluate your husbandry techniques, mostly the diet, although injuries and disease can certainly play a part in this condition.

I need to point out for your benefit and the benefit of others that read this forum, this is a classic example of someone attempting a a home-based cure without a proper diagnosis and quite possibly doing more damage than good. This is the reason why so many people preach about going to a veterinarian, only they are able to evaluate all of the possible conditions and provide a course of treatment. I can assure you that Nolvasan is not the preferred ocular ointment, and since this condition is most likely not pathogen induced, it probably has done more to irritate the eye.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

when the Vet knows very little herself about frogs & no one really see them ? Frogs, lizards, turtle, etc. are so hard to find good vet care & when you do, it's so far to drive there & also bucks. I want the best for my frogs & try hard to learn from others what I can in such problems, so I can help the frog & also inform the vet. Are you meaning the tank is bad etc. ? I do feed only crickets & not sure what else to feed ? Don't like to feed wild caught food. I order only crickets. I change water dishes every day & all that. I just wanted to know what this is or caused from ? Thought if I was doing something neg. now, I would fit it asap. Do you feel the salt (1 tsp. salt & 20 tsp. water) drops to the eye will do more harm ? I have been doing 5 drops once a day. I had another frog person tell me this. I do thank you for your post reply & help.

This is what happened to the first frog. I'm so afraid of this happening to my other frog that is having slight problems now. Starts out as a tiny spot somewhere on the eye & then this.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/Jengal/Frog Pics/P1010098.jpg

As you can see by today pics of my special " Dizzy " , she is fighting this in her right eye about 1 week now. It is getting worse. Her left eye is fine , but , fear this will spread & she will look like my other frog on one of my posts above. Please someone tell me if you have been through this & what I need to do, give, or try to save her eyes. This frog is very , very special & I saved her life once. I need some much needed avdive soon. I will take her to the vet if I know some info to tell her what to try or give to Dizzy. She will see frogs , but , really knows nothing. HELP PLEASE............

PS. Will post pics....some reason it wouldn't let me right now.

Jennie

I had 3 to show , but , when I would go back to copy & paste the others to here, I would lose this one. So, here one to give you an idea.

Thanks,
Jennie
Link

I'm sorry if it's not what you want to hear, but it needs to be said.

You say this have been going on for a week or so, yet you haven't really done what needed to have been done: taking your frog to that GOOD vet an hour a half a way . . . You probably could have gotten it treated or have gotten the PROPER medication for it instead of waiting for people to tell you what it MIGHT be so you can go to an inexperienced vet to get medication for what it MIGHT be . Do you see what I'm saying? It could be several things that caused this and getting treatment for one thing when it is in fact something else would just cause your pet more trouble. And trying random home-cures and remedies to treat it when you, yourself, are helpless is irrisponsible and dangerous. Also, waiting for treatment is doubtlessly making the condition worse.

If you're not prepared to provide your pet to get proper medical attention or pay vet fees (which comes with the territory of owning ANY pet) than you might not be prepared to have an animal.

that's just my opinion.

you really need to suck it up and just take it to that good vet since your vet knows absolutely nothing about the species. Do it for the sake of your animal . . .

I know what your saying & I will tell you that I spend a ton on each & every one of my animals. When it comes to spending $200 to $300 for a Vet visit in a big city (Columbus, OH.)to see
pocket pets......that gets too crazy. I love my pets dearly & would love to have a good local Vet in town to help me , but , that's just not the case. I thought that SOMEONE has seen this before & I could take that info to the Vet. There is really much known about frog problems & good people to help. That's why I have relied on some fourms, which seem to get me nowhere most of the darn time. I will go to the Vet (local though) to see what can be done, but , wanted to know if others have seen this & what they have done or tried ! This is a place to help others & not to just always say VET , VET , VET. Been there done that.

Thanks,
Jennie

It does look like you have corneal lipidosis, this is not that uncommon in captive frogs partly due to the cholesterol content in the commonly fed commercially available invertebrates.
There is some beliefs that this may be linked to lack of ovipositon but this has not been proven to date, but it is more commonly seen in some species than others particuarly as the longevity of many species increases due to better husbandry practices.
It is in my experience incurable (although it can be temporarily treated by having a vet scrape the deposits off of the eye), but with a little work the frogs can be trained to be fed by hand by gently touching a cricket to the foot or leg of the frog.

I am including a picture of a grey that had the condition for at least two years when the picture was taken.

Ed

Well EdK,
Thank you so much for your info. That's all I asked for & I want to learn about things that go wrong with my frogs. Cause of this ? I want to learn to better my frog keeping if I'm doing something way off. Do you know if this is spread from one frog to another ? I have 2 frogs going through this now that are 100% in different setups. These 2 have never been housed together. Is this your gray pictured ? If so, age & how long has the eye been this way ? Is it in both eyes ? Seeing the Vet in the morning.

Thanks much again,
Jennie

It is believed to be caused by the high saturated fat content in the feeder insects. There is speculation that the lack of reproduction is a contributing factor.
Basically, the cholesterol levels get so high in the blood that it is deposited on the frogs' eye(s).
It is not contagious.

It was not my personal frog but one that I worked with for about 7 years. It affected both eyes and they had been that way for several years at that point. I fed the frog by hand for that entire time.

Ed

to help the eye when it's just starting ? The eyes can't be saved from this getting 100% worse ? I went to the local Vet yesterday & it ended up just as I thought, not knowing what to do for the frog. I told her to please find out how to help from other Vets *via e-mail* , etc. so I can treat this frog. I asked, if Terramcyin would help......& she said, I don't see why it wouldn't hurt. I took your post with me & she agreed that could be what's going on. I drove around town looking for Terramcyin & found nothing. Everyone is out of it & the makers of this product have it on back order. I did find some at Pet Meds & ordered a tube. I want to know, while waiting on this, if I could try Neosporin in the eye ? I just feel I don't want to give up on the new frog getting this & want to try anything to save her eyes. I was hoping the Terramcyin would help. I just don't know & feel so helpless. I have many frogs & this now scares me my others will get this. It's just funny that now I have 2 frogs going though this & they have been 100% apart. Your gray is pretty & I'm glad to know if that's what it is, I couldn't have stopped it....I guess. Aren't grays so sweet ? I love this frog. Do you know the age of yours ? I raised tadpoles & my babies are about 3 or 4. They were a swimming pool rescure & saved as many as I could net. Set so many free around my home & raised a few. They have just been so dear to my heart & you feel so bad when something is wrong & you can't help. You have been a big help & I THANK YOU. See, that's what I think forums are for.....to learn, try to help, & inform others about their issues.

Thanks again,
Jennie

I am estatic to see at least one person on this forum willing to take their animal to the vet and do they can to correct problems, but I don't see how you are going about this the right way.

We've established that the condition is directly the result of diet. Terramycin? Neosporin? These are ANTIBIOTICS- they kill bacteria, they will do nothing but cause bacterial resistance and put undue stress on the frog!! Do not use these at all.

To show that you haven't been understanding the underlying cause, you keep repeating this...
>It's just funny that now I have 2 frogs going though this & they have been 100% apart.
It doesn't matter if they are separated if they are fed the SAME thing.

Please reread my original post, I did put a lot of time into it, I stated "corneal lipidosis, a diet induced condition normally resulting from an excess amount of fatty acids and/or cholesterol. You give no mention of your husbandry techniques, but I suspect that you are possibly feeding the frogs too much, using improper supplements or not feeding enough diversity and relying on food items that may not necessarily be best for long-term health."

It is the frog's DIET that is causing this problem. To make any corrections, diversify the diet, and DO NOT OVERFEED. A full grown Gray can easily subsist on 5 crickets a week.
-----
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I just thought the Terramcyin would help maybe stop it since it's for eye problems. I willing to give anything a try to help save her sight. I see how Neo. will be not good to use. I just thought something to keep the eye moist & I just hoped it would fight what is going on. I know if it's the condition you think it is, this won't help. I know the diet thing would have to be it, if this it what you think. I have feed 3 times a week for a long time & slacked off this summer to 2 days. I dust with Miner-All I, 2 of the days & Herptitve (sp?), 1 day. Have done this from day 1. I have 9 grays, so why just these 2 going through this ? Also, how would husbandry cause this ? I will post a pic of a couple of my setups & you judge. I have let them go with the cleaning longer than I would like & noticed this problem. I thought they might just have something bacteria wise & it was doing something to their eyes. I use Amquel to treat water, change dishes nightly, mist tanks, wipe sides, & try to break down the tank at 6 months. I have noticed if I let that go.....problems start. I just didn't want to rule out an eye infection at this point. What else can you order to feed frogs ? I have always feed crickets I order & don't like to feed wild caught bugs. Not too much to choose from to offer them different things. I thank you for help.

Jennie

Just a couple of my setups.

Jennie
Link

The vet is correct, terramycin won't hurt but it also won't help if it is corneal lipidosis. Corneal liidosis as I understand it from the vets is hard to positively confirm in the early stages in small anurans. This is because its too early in the progression to use an scraping of the tye and the frogs are too small to allow for a blood draw to determine the level of cholesterol in the blood of the frog.

If you look on http://www.pondturtle.com/lfrog.html#Hyla you can see that the longevity of the grey tree frog complex runs between 4 and 6 years. I would suspect that the majority of the wild frog population does not get this old and those that do could develop the condition but I would suspect that predators take advantage of the situation or the frog starves to death. Female greys seem to be more susceptiable to the condition possibly due to the mobilization of the fats for yolking up of the eggs. I would suspect that both of the frogs that are showing signs of the condition are females.
I had it show up in the frog at about 3 years in captivity.

The nutritional analysis of wild insects is unknown so if this condition can be prevented by wc feeder insects.

Anurans are typically hard wired to feed when ever food is available and this can readily cause obesity and other complications.

Ed

I thank you much for your time & info. I know my froggies are probably too spoiled & will back off on this. I know us humans tend to kill our pets with kindness & when it comes to my frogs, I need to back off. They are such pigs, so I thought 3 X's of week feeding was good. I felt bad backing off to 2 X's & thought they would get too hungry. Is there any other things I can order to feed them to put a slight change in their diet ? I don't like feeding mealworms (hard to digest), waxworms (I feel too fatty), so I don't know of anything other than crickets ? Worms are a pain, fall & drown in the water. I read that grays can live to be 10 yrs. in the wild & maybe much longer in captivity ??? I will give Terramcyin a shot for awhile when I get it (coming via mail soon) & see what happens. The new frog having this now, seems to have a white line at the top of the eye (slight) & her pupil looks dilated. I know ones a female , but , think the other is a male. One was about 15 grams & the other was about 9 when weighed. How often & long would you try using the terramycin in the eye ?

Thanks again,
Jennie

I'm not sure of the source of the wild longevity but I have some doubts as to its accuracy (and if it is documented, then to keep in mind that if one animal (or person) can do it, does not mean that the vast majority of other animals can reach that age regardless of the support). It is possible but having kept them long term, this species as well as Hyla squirrella, and Hyla cinerea begin to show signs of ageing between 4 and 6 years with an increase in mortality between these periods and I have not had a survivor past 7 years at this time. On necropsy the frogs show causes of death that are very typical of very geriatric animals.

I seriously doubt that the terramycin will help you at all.

As for the diet, as I said before, the cultured insects have a high saturated fat content so there is not a lot of change you can make here. As with other animals, longer lifespans allow the development of pathologies that are not seen in wild animals.

Ed