Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this is just a wild theory, but hear me out.

i think some snakes are smart enough to be paper trained,
examples: my ball pythons sometimes use their humidity hides as toilets, another example, i know a person who has a ball python that sometimes when out of its cage for a while will go back to its cage voulentarily if you let it and escaped once and three days later was found... you guessed it, back in its cage.

now that i have examples of snakes showing signs of intelligence heres the theory;

take a snake thats been housed on paper towels as substrate for a while, put carpet under the paper, once a month use one less square of paper towels until either the snake starts going on the carpet or you have just one sheet of paper in the corner that they use, therefor making your life easier.

now another part of my theory wich i think will be the key is when you notice any urine or feces on the paper clean it asap, when you notice it on the carpet "punish" the snake by leaving it there for a longer period of time (an extra day or two).
the reason i think that part is critical is because when my bps use the humid hide as a toilet it makes the feces smell more and i clean it up as soon as i smell it, when its on the carpet i dont notice it until i take the snake out of the cage, and all this is a theory based on my observations so im sure there are flaws, because im only one person and i think too much

give me your thoughts
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

Hi Jake,

My thoughts? I think you have entirely too much time on your hands . Now back to the original thought. While I am not necessarily going to knock the fact that reptiles are "trainable" because they are. Now that "trainable" degree is just that...it's only a degree. It only goes so far. The snake escaped, and 3 days later was found back in it's cage? Well, most likely that is due to the fact that the temps and humidity throughout the house is not appropriate for the snake. It found it's way back to the enclosure because that is the only place it could find that has proper temperatures and humidity. Most likely the snake wasn't far from the cage to begin with.

Now, as for paper training....well I am not too sure how well that would work out. The only difference that I might be able to see is the texture difference. The texture difference between carpet and newspaper is obvious. The snake can tell the difference as well. However, to say that you are going to papertrain the snake, will only depend on the snakes preference. The snake is simply going to go where it wants. You avoiding it for the next couple of days is going to be a treat most likely to the snake. Remember this is an animal that TOLERATES your handing. It doesnt' LOOK FORWARD to your handling like a dog or cat would. There is no true way to "punish" a snake.

JMO,

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

i meant leave the feces in the cage for an extra day to show them that the mess will go away faster if they go on the paper,

it was just a theory so dont go and give me a hundred reasons why it wont work, i never said i even thought it would work, thats why im trying it, its just an expirement,

so anything anybody says to make me feel stupid for trying will only make me stop reading the forums for a week, so if you want to critisize me go ahead but i wont read it or reply

if you think im over reacting too early im just saying it now because i know i will have to say it later.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

My friend, you are certainly overreacting. You requested opinions and you were given mine. My further opinion is that jeoprodizing your snakes health so you can try to find a work-around for doing proper cleaning is inhumane and WRONG! I am sure you are going to do what you wish, which is up to you. You can not respond to this message and you can stop reading the forums for a week if you wish because quite frankly you aren't hurting me the slightest little iota, you are hurting your animal only.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

leaving feces in the cage for an extra day is wrong, so i guess i will have to rethink that part of my theory, like i said its just a theory im investigating that will be changed as i go

and yes i did overreact to your post but i was refering to the posters who were going to say im stupid and lazy for trying, and give me a bunch of crap about thousands of years of evolution, but my counter arguement for them is: if they can be captivated, tamed and made comfortable enough to eat and breed in a cage than maybe they can be tamed even further, maybe they cant, its worth a try.

if you want to say something about why you dont think it will work dont say "your stupid, you cant train snakes, youre just wasting time and your stupid", be original give me a replie like "i dont think its going to work because..." or "ive tried"
and again this is not refering to any one post but to all the replies in this topic,

and i only have three(four soon) snakes to try this with and i will probably spend a year of experimenting with different ways of reducing the amount of paper. and i know theres a good chance it wont work but someone has to try, and if you never try youll never know the potential of the intelligence of snakes and how well they adapt.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

since i only have a small amount of snakes to try this with i was wondering if there is anybody who has a large number of snakes especially a large range of ages and species.

i know this whole thing seems unrealistic but if snakes have gone this far in captivity maybe weve only seen the tip of the icberg and they can be further domesticated.

i know this might not apply to snakes and reptiles but, look at cats and dogs. they have been captive bred and domesticated for thousands of years and generations and most have no resemblance to thier wild ancestors, they have been domestacated enough to stay near home, see poeple as friends and the dominant members of the house, dogs are loyal, some have even lost most of thier instinct, and some species of dogs(and a few cats) would die without us, you know those little dogs who can barely bark and constantly shake. and when domestic dogs/cats run away they become emaciated and sickly.

we have only been captive breeding reptiles for a short time so maybe as we further breed reptiles in captivity without introducing wc specimens we will see some more things that we never dreamed of before, morphs are a good example.

sorry for rambling on but im really interested in finding out just how smart snakes are... or arent
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

"i meant leave the feces in the cage for an extra day to show them that the mess will go away faster if they go on the paper

"Leaving feces in the cage for an extra day is wrong, so i guess i will have to rethink that part of my theory, like i said its just a theory im investigating that will be changed as i go"

Snakes don't necessarily dislike the presence of fecies in their enclosure. They change their defecational behaviour depending on the presence of fecies. I would suggest you read this paper (See notes below, no 1) and then come to the conclusion that you'll fail.

"I know this might not apply to snakes and reptiles but, look at cats and dogs. they have been captive bred and domesticated for thousands of years and generations and most have no resemblance to thier wild ancestors, they have been domestacated enough to stay near home, see poeple as friends and the dominant members of the house, dogs are loyal, some have even lost most of thier instinct, and some species of dogs(and a few cats) would die without us, you know those little dogs who can barely bark and constantly shake. and when domestic dogs/cats run away they become emaciated and sickly."

Are you suggesting that you would prefer snakes to be different from their here called 'wild ancestors'? Perhaps we could train them to just eat leftovers rather than rats?? That'd be cheaper. Why stop at using a piece of paper?? Why not the toilet (cat's can do it)? Yes, some cats and dogs would die without us. These cats and dogs are also the genetically impure ones created by us through interbreeding and hybridisation - it's our fault, and not nature's.

"so anything anybody says to make me feel stupid for trying will only make me stop reading the forums for a week, so if you want to critisize me go ahead but i wont read it or reply"

Well that's really mature. Make a suggestion and ask for critisism, pre-emp the type of critisism you'll receive, and then have a go at people before they've even reacted in the way you predicted... ha! Go ahead, don't reply. I'll still sleep tonight. If you wanted a polite reply, perhaps you shouldn't have been so rude in the first place.

Aaron.

1 - Ray Hoser, WHY DO DEATH ADDERS AND OTHER SNAKES STORE THEIR FECES? (2003), Smuggled, < http://www.smuggled.com/AddFec1.htm > at 14th September 2005.
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Happy Herping

yes i know i overreacted, but at the time it didnt seem like i did, but who really cares, its not the point.

the link had some interesting information but it says nothing about why my theory is flawed, the way i see it, it supports my theory and shows that snakes dont like to be in the same area as the feces, maybe my theory would work with a death adder.

and i say again it was a theory of mine that i want to investigate, all the things about cats and dogs, those are just things i think show that anything may be possible.

and why do you use mostly things that dont matter to show unimportant flaws? the stuff about dogs, and my over reacting. and where did i say i wanted to feed my snakes scraps and have them use a toilet?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

The best way to paper train your snake is to rub his nose in the doodoo as soon as you see it. Don't wait to long or your snake won't understand why he has poo on his nose. Another way is threatening him with a rolled up newspaper,thats how I paper trained my chickens and geese and they live in the house. Hope this helps.

n/p
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Assuming you nix the part about leaving the poo in there, it may be an interesting experiment. But I see three hurdles to ovecome in persuading a snake to do anything. Snakes do have some intelligence, but there's some catches.

1. There's no way to really reward a snake. Sure, they like food, warmth, and snakes of the opposite gender, but those are hard things to offer them immediately after good behavior.

2. There's no way to really punish a snake. Vinegar at the mouth/nose region of a snake who's actively constricting and trying to eat you, is the closest ethical thing, getting the snake to let go, and as a side effect, offering a negative association with eating your hand. But offer too many negative associations, and the snake will come to associate you with bad things. And offering scary or unpleasant things will make the snake think you're a big, scary predator. There's no "Oops I'm sorry" like with dogs, or even "Oh, bleep, he/she's ticked!" that there is with horses or cats.

3. With perhaps a few extraordinary exceptions that I don't know about, snakes are solitary simple creatures that don't give a rats ass about pleasing their keepers. Then again, that's a poor metaphor, as most snakes would probably truly enjoy munching a rat's hind end.

If you can somehow get around these three enormous things, it should otherwise be easy to train a snake. But then that's like saying college would be easy if there weren't any tests, teachers or homework.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

thanks, thats the kind of post i was looking for.
i guess with all of the things like that theres really no realistic way of paper training a snake, it was fun to imagenate about but all along i kinda knew it was too good to be possible
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

I have a coastal rosy that consistently poops in his humidity box. I would say 6 straight times it did its business in the humidity box.

I hope it continues because it makes things easy for me.