Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to say thank you to those who posted on my moral issue with the ball python "price." There are a few things I need to explain because I got hit pretty hard with some comments. My herpetological society does not officially do adoptions for various reasons (such as the pain in the ...). What we do is work with adoption agencies and members within the organization who do adoption work to help these animals get moved.

When emails come to me regarding animals I will send information out in the weekly email before I respond to any owners of agencies. If I am interested I will respond for myself and also a representative of my herpetological society.

The reason I asked was because this individual was wanting to make a sale. I was not willing to work as a sale but would compensate for his cost of rescuing the animal himself (I am a nice guy and I think this as fair to promote people "doing the right thing"

When I discussed this with him in person I still got the feeling he wanted a sale so I did give him a price I felt was a "compromise." When I came back later to pick up the snake (after the thread below) he was happy we helped get it off his hands and go to a good place. This accomplished what I wanted and I had no problem assuring good deeds can sometimes go rewarded.

I missed getting in on the last conversation (darn me for working so hard!) but I wanted to chime in here.

I THINK the overall goal of "rescuing" an animal (or anything else) comes down to this - Taking something from an improper/dangerous enviornment/situation to one that is healthier/safer/more conducive to it. I don't see how money one way or another is a factor in the term "rescue". Motives, I think, don't even play a part in that. Who cares if someone gets in the spotlight for rescuing an animal, who cares what the motive behind the person doing the rescue is. Is the animal safer, in this case I would say yes. I paid an adoption fee for my ball python when I got it from a local rescue. I don't care if it went into their pocket or where ever else. They took the animal in, they cared for it, they said the fee was more based on making sure that the adopter was serious about it and IMO $25.00 and a quiz (yes written) to adopt an animal is fine with me!

I also paid for our Mountain Horned Dragon to get it out of a bad home/situation. Do I feel I rescued the animal? Well, it had not been feed or given water for a month- now, it is feed and misted daily. Is it in a more conducive enviornment? Then how is that not a rescue.

I commend you on your work, and wish you and your balls the best!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Thanks Bryan. I think people were a bit confused when I posted it the first time. I actually consider the person who found the snake left to die in an apartment the "rescue er." He did not know much about snakes and had tried to correct some problems based on a ball python manual he bought. I thought this was great. He contacted me and had told me he really didn't know much about snakes and would feel better if the snake was taken by someone who did. I told him I would include the animal in the next weekly email. I did this and got no response from the membership so I decided to take a look at it myself. Since it was female I told him I would take it and take a chance with it and I gave him a price slightly higher than his cost of taking on the animal and feeding it (so what..its 25$). Since my organization does NOT run an adoption agency and only works with people who do...I really didn't see the problem with this either. I thin khe has a good view of our organization because of my attempt to both compensate his cost and give him some money to make him happy (help fill the bar at the apartment..who knows). So maybe the animal was "adopted" by me and this student was the agency...I don't know. Either way the animal was rescued and found a good home.

Thanks for your response. I was starting to think I should have never posted it lol. People appear to have a strict view of adoption and rescue but I did not think this situation fell exactly into the scope of it : )

I think the flack you received was primarily from people who do legitimate rescues and there is a very good reason for that. Those of us who do rescue many many animals every year cannot pay to do so - we constantly have people that want us to "buy" their animal - but we cannot - that is not what we do.

As a representative of a herp society you should have known better than to have represented yourself or the transaction as a rescue - facilitating the misconception that rescuers will "buy" your animal if you cannot care for it.

To purchase an underprivledged animal, and bring it back to good health is to be commended but as the animal was (as you describe) in good health aside from a bad shed and 800 grams doesn't sound like it's too neglected. IMO (going strictly on what you've presented) it sounds to me more like you bought yourself a potential breeder cheap and justified it as being a rescue. Did you tell the owner what the animal was really worth? Would you have done the same thing had it been male if so why did you bother sexing it before purchasing it? Why not just give the guy $25 and take the animal? What happens the next time someone calls and wants you to pay for a rescue? Or worse what happens the next time someone calls a legitimate rescuer and expects to be paid because the so and so herp society pays to rescue animals - beleive me that stuff gets around.

No one but yourself can tell you if you did the right thing - if you feel like you put all the cards on the table, let the owner make an informed decision, and you both got a fair deal then so be it - if you are second guessing yourself there may be a reason.

I will step off my soap box now.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Ok, I think a few important keys keep getting missed. This animal was FOUND left to die in an apartment. He did what he read in a bp manual to keep it but realized he wasnt qualified and contacted my organization to help it go somewhere else. He was looking for a slae here since my organization does not do an adoption service. All we try and do is let qualified people know of animals in need of a home. He was "willing" to let it go as an adoption but would "rather" get some money. Being not willing to "purchase" the snake but being it was something I had slight interest in I thought I would try and make him happy. He was and enjoys getting our weekly email.

I understand completely - but I think you missed my point - on many levels your actions were a huge disservice to those people that put their blood, sweat and tears into legitimetly rescuing animals. It was a sale period, he wanted to sell it - you wanted to buy it - you gave him money - to call it a rescue to justify the price is again a disservice. If it was ethical - look at it this way - when the guy asked what a fair price was - did you tell him - that females of that size are about $200-$300 all things considered a fair price would be $100 but since you just want to get rid of it to a nice home - I'll give you $20 and maybe more "somewhere down the line" if you did and he was fine with it - then you should sleep fine.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"I think the flack you received was primarily from people who do legitimate rescues and there is a very good reason for that."

- So you are saying that it is not a "legitimate rescue" if you pay for it? Can you please tell me in what definition you are using for that statement? The English dictionaries I have found must be missing that part. (Just to make sure I also checked in Spanish, French, and a couple of obscure African dialects that our little ball friends might be used to... or at least that those who are captive bred may know a derivative of). Yet none say anything about finances entering in the picture.

"Those of us who do rescue many many animals every year cannot pay to do so - we constantly have people that want us to "buy" their animal - but we cannot - that is not what we do."

- How do you know that those on the other side of this tollbooth restriction that you have placed here have not rescued many, many more? Though when you refine terms and words I guess it is easy to make that kind of statement.

“As a representative of a herp society you should have known better than to have represented yourself or the transaction as a rescue - facilitating the misconception that rescuers will "buy" your animal if you cannot care for it.”

- You should have known better? That is just flat out rude and uncalled for. But as I have seen in the past people do have different views on things. Some people feel that others sold sick animals just trying to make a quick buck while the seller claim that the animals were healthy. I guess it all gets down to definition.

I am not trying to get involved in a flame war but I am also not going to sit back while someone insults me and others for “illegitimate rescues” when we have the animal’s best interest at heart and not just using our many many rescues as an attempt to elevate ourselves, our soapboxes and our views above everyone else.

E4, I understand the point that the other person was the person you see as the rescuer, but I don’t think there is much of a difference between his actions and yours. Some just seem to be missing the fact that the animal is in better care. I know not everyone can do that, but is it better to see the animal die? I am not debating the moral issue of it, I agree with you, others may not, but I am going to argue with someone that is going to make up definitions to suit their needs and state that it is not a rescue or a legitimate rescue. The guy that rescued it did good, you did good, snake happy. It is in better care… “rescue”…
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

np
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

What I am saying is that there are organizations that do rescues - that are set up for rescues and that have certain guidelines that they need to follow. A majority of these organizations cannot and will not pay to receive an animal. If you are not set up to properly rescue an animal in the sense that you are accepting freely animals in need then you shouldn't represent yourself as such. To represent yourself as a rescuer then turn around and pay for an animal creates many issues including leading people to believe that they should be entitled to receive money for their animals they cannot care for - including leading people to believe that people only rescue animals they want or that "rescuers" only do it because they want a cheap animals - including leading people to believe that rescues take advantage of people or animals when they are vulnerable and the list goes on - including leading people to think that becoming or posing as a rescuer is a good way to get cheap animals.

I am by no means saying that if you pay for an animal in need and give it a good home that you have not "rescued" that animal. People are to be commended for such. But that really does not appear to be the case - for what I gather the purpose of the original post was that this person was justifying paying $25 for a $200 snake by calling it a rescue. I believe the phrase he used was that he was interested in the snake but didn’t want to buy it.

As someone that has been taking in some sick - abused - neglected animals for many many years - yes I am offended by that. As a fellow herper you should be too.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I was not expecting even close to the amount of response I got from this. I never thought it would be debated and I also expected some comical responses (mainly from friends).

I am not having a hard time with this rescue. I ascted within the scope of my organization by trying to help an animal find a home. We have one member who runs a rescue service who also got the email and I got no response. They kept the animal longer than they expected due to inability to find a "no kill facility." I told him we would easily be able to find someone who would (at a minimum) compensate him for his cost of caring so far. He said he would be willing to make it an "adoption" if need be. I could tell by his voice he would like more so I used a similar voice in the email suggesting the same. Once no response came I acted on my own potential interest. HOWEVER, I acted on the interest of a ball python...not their weight in gold for the morph market. I would do the same with any animal (especially if I am already completely equipt to accomidate it).

The only reason it came into this forum as it did was because everyone wants them. If it were male I would not have taken it because it is not what my organization does. I would have given him some care tips to go by until I could get it adopted for him. If they were willing to give him money...great!

Since this has been seemingly controversial...I want it to be clear I acted within the scope of my organization and I do not have any trouble with what occured. I even told him to come on this very site to look at the prices which IMO are a bit rediculous even for this market. I made it very clear why he was not likely to get this from a member of our organization...especially given its history (since quarantine, medication, and re-caging can be a pain). But I said I would give him slightly more than what I figured he had in care (and this was also after I realized the price he paid for rats at a pet store rather than our bags of frozens...I guess not everyone keeps a few hundred rats in a freezer).

I do not want this to be compared to those of you who run a great service doing reptile rescues. We work with many people who do the same. However, our primary focus is on science and education. Relocations are usually handled via the herp society as a "middle man" and by a member having some interest in the animal. I am certainly not passing this "cheap sale" off as a rescue. The original threads would never exist if I didn't know how bright peoples eyes get when they see FEAMLE BALL PYTHON.