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and, despite extensive internet and literature searches, can't find a whole lot about them...lots of the internet info. was in German or Japanese (and by the way the Google translations are HILARIOUS), and American literature either doesn't mention them, or dismisses them as "dull" or "not colorful"...I did learn they need to be kept cooler than N. American rats...but any other help would be appreciated..

Also, I was very interested in the Asian ratsnake discussion further down...so the current thinking is that N. American Elaphe came from Asian Elaphe that crossed the land bridge? And now the American group has evolved so differently that they're Pantherophis instead of Elaphe? Is that based just on DNA, or are there other differences? I must say that when I showed my new snake to a co-worker, he immediately said "Oh, a baby black rat snake; I found one of those last summer"...and except for the faint greenish tinge on the Japanese rat and some subtle pattern differences, he's right...very, very similar...

SR

Shelley,
Congrats on your new climacs--I hope that you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy my 1.3. I keep mine at room temperature, which in my herp room is between 78 and 82. When I got them as hatchlings, they all took f/t mice fairly regularly. Now I've switched them to f/t rats with little problem. My 04's rarely turn down a meal, while my 03's sometimes decide they're not in the mood. I feed them once every 7-10 days, although they may get a snack if there are any left on a feeding night that it not ususally theirs. I'm really enjoying observing the gradual color change and their very curious personalities. Best of luck with yours. I'd like to know more about yours.

rgds,
althea

which means "husband" in Ainu. This is a photo of him when he was just a little guy.

Althea--Thanks so much for the reply and the photo...Hoku is beautiful and, in fact, looks just like my guy...Mine came from Ben Siegal and is just a tiny little thing, maybe 8-10" long..he's already much more active and "wired" than my VERY laid back Texas Baird's was at his age..Haven't tried feeding him yet, but there are pinkies in the freezer and I'll offer him one this weekend after he settles a little more..

Thanks for the temp. info. also--I guess I'll leave him at room temperature and not offer any supplemental heat...He certainly seems comfortable enough at this point..

You mentioned color changes--I'm guessing that they lighten in color, the pattern fades somewhat and the green intensifies a little--is that right? It looks, from the pictures I found on the internet, that there's a lot of variability though--I saw some that were solid brown or solid grey...What's your experience been?...thanks again..Do you have anymore photos?

SR

of my pair - Harry and Carey. I'm a Cubs fan so those names work two ways.

They're gorgeous...I can only hope my little shoe-string turns out that pretty...Do you know if they keep those colors, or do they darken with age? The names are great too(I get it, hari-kari).....mine is named Kato, 'cause I'm a big fan of the old Peter Seller's "Pink Panther" movies..

SR

They were 5 at the time and 8 now. The colors hold. These giys ar my wife's favorites. They are a little flighty but very interesting and beautiful.

Thanks Mark...just two more quick questions: how big are those guys, and do you ever breed them?...thanks...

SR

They are about 4-4.5 ft long. I'll be breeding them this next spring.

The problem with ratsnake taxonomy lies in what defines ratsnakes: a bunch of generalised colubrids, formerly lumped together into the genus Elaphe based on a lack of distinctive morphological characters. Morphologically distinctive sistergroups traditionally were outgrouped, which resulted in a highly paraphyletic Elaphe, an outcome considered as invalid by most taxonomist in general and cladists in particular.

For instance, American ratsnakes share a common ancestor with Kingsnakes and Pine/Bull/Gophersnakes. If we outgroup Lampropeltis and Pituophis from Elaphe, which we do, and include the American ratsnakes within Elaphe, which we no longer do, we get a paraphyletic Elaphe. However, if we consider Pantherophis as a sistergroup of Elaphe, which we do, we once again get nice and clean monophyletic taxonomical entities, well at least the American ones.

The resurrection of Pantherophis has been proposed by Utiger et al, based on an analysis of mitochondrial DNA and hemipenal morphometrics. It doesn't mean that Elaphe climacophora isn't similar morpholically to Pantherophis. It does mean, however, that E. climacophora and Pantherophis do not share a common ancester recent enough to belong to the same monophyletical genus.

I see..(I think)...please be patient with me, I was an English major, not a biology major, but I am interested...Put very simplistically, an ancient Asian elaphe crossed the Bering Land Bridge to N. America and was subsequently isolated; it evolved into what we call the N. American rat snakes, the Kingsnakes, and the Bull/Pine snakes...at this point the N. American ratsnakes are actually more closely related to Lampropeltis and Pituophis than to the old world elaphe? I'm guessing because you mentioned hemipenal morphometric differences that the N. American ratsnakes cannot breed with old world ratsnakes, but I know they can breed with Pituophis and Lampropeltis...Is this correct? Thank you so much for taking the time to respond and I hope I don't sound as possibly stupid as I feel...

SR

Indeed, it means that Pantherophis is related more closely to Lampropeltis and Pituophis. But it doesn't mean that a snake like Pantherophis obsoletus cannot be crossed with Elaphe climacophora. Since Elaphe climacophora resembles the American ratsnakes so closely, it could share a common ancestor with the American lampropeltids recent enough to be genetically and morphometrically compatible. The thing is, we don't know until we try. I have seen Elaphe schrencki x Pantherophis guttatus crossbreeds before. These turned out to be infertile, by the way. Since Elaphe climacophora is genetically compatible with E. schrenki, this could mean that E. climacophora is incompatible with Pantherophis. I would not waste my precious time if I were you.

No,no...I would never actually do any crossbreeding of any kind; I was just using that as a way to try and figure out how close genetically the various species are...Thanks so much for your time...it sounds like a very complex relationship between old world rats and new world pantherophis, pituophis, and lampropeltis...I'll leave it to the taxonomists and biologists...thanks again...

SR

go out of town and miss a terrific conversation! Thank you, Hermann--substantial info to think about. Interestingly enough, what initially attracted me to the climacs was a ban on the sale of cornsnakes in my state. My research at the time convinced me that the climacs were similar in many ways. Since I work with kids who learn much from pet snakes, I decided to venture down this path.

Shelley, the coloration of mine--my 0.2 '03's are becoming increasingly blue/turquoise. My 1.1 '04's show the promise of becoming predominantly bright green with blue highlights. Of the 14 genera represented in my herp room, the climacs are fast becoming my favorites. Mark, I agree that they can be flighty at times, but they are so intriguing! I only hope that mine turn out to be as gorgeous as your adults!

Prettier than corns, nicer than texas rats, what's not to like?
rgds,
althea

Hey Althea---thanks for the info on coloration...I was thinking they may darken the way corn snakes tend to, but apparently they don't (yay)...It's interesting you should mention working with kids; I work at the Humane Society and was thinking I might like to do some education with my snakes; I deliberately chose what I hoped would be docile, fairly easy to handle species; I have a Western hognose, a Baird's rat snake, and now the climacophora...I'm hoping he'll end up being as nice to handle as the other two are; although on my extensive internet searches I found a group that uses snakes for education, listed all the species they had, and under climacophora, they said their specimen was for display only, because he "startled easily"...I'm going to handle my guy frequently and hope for the best...

SR

Shelley,
Working at the Humane Society--very cool! I always bring our local HS huge bags of dog & cat chow whenever I shop at Sam's Club--every little bit helps!

I have a mexican black king in my classroom. I've had him since he was a worm, and until recently, was very docile. Lately he's been a little strange, but the moon has been full (LOL). I totally trust one of my BCI females around humans, as I do several of my corns. I have a female spotted python who does well being touched, and my bearded dragon practically does tricks for superworms when in public. A lot depends upon the animal. I worked at a children's science museum for awhile, and had an amazing emerald tree boa as an education snake. Go figure!

Hoku has been fairly mellow to date, although my female climacs are more flighty. But there again, I have a couple of flighty corns. Only time will tell how they will be as pets and educational animals.

One of my favorite past times is doing workshops about animals in the classroom for other teachers. I always bring along a couple of snakes and an instant camera just to ammend some misconceptions in the group. It amazes me how many teachers want to take back a photo of them holding a snake to show their kids.

And, since the law only prohibits the sale of corn snakes, I give hatchlings to teachers for classroom pets. It's very cool to have an offspring of the snake they held in the photo. There is a waiting list. It's all about education. . .

rgds,
althea

>>The problem with ratsnake taxonomy lies in what defines ratsnakes: a bunch of generalised colubrids, formerly lumped together into the genus Elaphe based on a lack of distinctive morphological characters. Morphologically distinctive sistergroups traditionally were outgrouped, which resulted in a highly paraphyletic Elaphe, an outcome considered as invalid by most taxonomist in general and cladists in particular.
>>
>>For instance, American ratsnakes share a common ancestor with Kingsnakes and Pine/Bull/Gophersnakes. If we outgroup Lampropeltis and Pituophis from Elaphe, which we do, and include the American ratsnakes within Elaphe, which we no longer do, we get a paraphyletic Elaphe. However, if we consider Pantherophis as a sistergroup of Elaphe, which we do, we once again get nice and clean monophyletic taxonomical entities, well at least the American ones.
>>
>>The resurrection of Pantherophis has been proposed by Utiger et al, based on an analysis of mitochondrial DNA and hemipenal morphometrics. It doesn't mean that Elaphe climacophora isn't similar morpholically to Pantherophis. It does mean, however, that E. climacophora and Pantherophis do not share a common ancester recent enough to belong to the same monophyletical genus.

Herman, that is an excellent response...a great summation of what's going on with ratsnake taxonomy. For the benefit of the strand I'll add a couple of my ideas.

I've been studying the Old World ratsnakes since about 1988 and American ratsnakes before that. I've had most of the Old World snakes at one time or another and believe thay are all related somehow..a common ancestor. Right now I keep Elaphe dione and E. bimaculata, Zamenis situla, Euprepiophis mandarina, and Orthriophis taeniura. I believe they are related and have evolved from a racer-like ratsnake at a time when North American ratsnakes, kingsnakes, etc, were evolving separately.

The N.A. ratsnake ancestor(s) probably arrived in N.A. sometime in the early Miocene, some 20 mya, as there are fossils from the early Miocene. They've been evolving quite a long time and I think deserve a separate genus. The various genera in the Old World are a little more questionable, imo, as there are some obvious relationships.

The endemic ratsnakes of the Japanese islands seem to be related to mainland Asia ratsnakes, but have been evolving a long time too. I think climacophora makes the nicest pet of the three species and is most like the American ratsnakes. It is more closely related to the Old World ratsnakes, however, and could be similar to Pantherophis obsoleta in the sense that it has a similar habitat and behaviors.

Good luck with your snakes. I sure enjoyed mine while working with that species.

Terry

-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Hello Terry,

I think you're right about E. climacophora, of all the Old World ratsnakes it resembles the New World ratsnakes the most. Geographical distribution, hemipenal morphology, squamation, karyotype, it all seems to agree with E. climacophora as a close relative. Of all the Old World species, it definately is my most favorite, by the way, especially the Kunasir Island race.

Greetings, Herman.