Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What do you guys think of those who post animals on Kingsnake.com without having produced them themselves? Let me be more specific.
What do you guys think of those posting pastel, spiders, mojaves and other morphs at lower prices than everyone else without having the snake in their possession and with or without a picture?
And then, what do you think of the those selling to this guys behind the scenes for far less? Sometimes letting them broker the animal without any cash out of pocket and killing the market.

I will be the 1st to say that if you want to wholesale your animals then fine. But do it off line and not advertise the prices here publicly online. Also don't sell so cheaply that buyer can sell it publicly online for less than ALL others and still make money. This is a market killer for you and all wholesales, us and all breeders, and only scares off many who want to join the Ball Python Market.
Really, if you want to sell your animals for $5000 then get $5000 up front for the animal. DON'T let some market crasher sell your animal with your picture for $5250 without having to pay for it up front. I know if I bought something for $5000 and paid for it up front I would not be selling it for less than $6500 with risk animal dies.

IF YOU ARE PART OF THE MARKET THEN PROTECT IT!

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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles

http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles

Well, I guess this is more like saying dont shop at wal-mart because they have lower prices. Sure the people who work there dont know anything about the products they sell, but does that make them bad products? Sometimes, but most of the time no. Is it wrong for someone who has an awsome ebay feedback to open a retail store front and offer to auction things off for people?? No... thats the same thing if you take your snake to an online seller and have them sell it. You say you would make the price so high... thats not the name of the game... its volume. If I have to sit on that snake for 6 months... how likely is that breeder to come back and ask me to sell for him again?

Selling for wholesale? Something like a pastel will not have a wholesale price. If you over bred them and flooded the market, and have to sell them for less just to get rid of them all... you have killed the market price and messed everyone else over on prices... thats not wholesale... thats the risk of buying genetics with the hopes of making money. If I have 10,000 shares of a stock that I paid $1 each for, and joe wants a new house real bad and sells his 300,000 stocks for $0.75ea, he has killed the market price... is that fair? Sure it is! Did he just wholesale those stocks? No. Market price is the price people are willing to pay at any time. If they priced them so low, you buy them and resell them

Them not posting pics, giving bad info... I am glad they dont delete these ads because if you made people submit perfict ads I would not be able to tell the scams from the good ones!

After looking at your pictures I can see why you are upset... you sold the pastels for double to tripple the price they are at now... look at how many males you produced 2 years ago... now everyone who paid you a boat load of money has bred them to 10 females who all had at least 2 pastels each to make their money back... so from one male 2 years ago they produced 20 pastels this year... and next year the males from them (statistically 10) will produce 20 more each....

How is anyone suposed to get rid of that many high dollar snakes??? They cant. Thats why the drop the prices very low... they have to get rid of tons of normals and tons of pastels... if it was me I would be selling them for $500 too!

Lets put this into perspective... if all the car companys made 1 million cars year 1, and year 2 they made 10 million cars, and year 3 they made 100 million, would a new car from year 3 be the same market value as the new car from year 1? No way. But you know that already. You are just mad at all the people who have to take their cars to dealers and trade them in or sell them for outgagously low prices because they dont want to get tons of stupid phone calls or pay for a huge amount of marketing they will never use... or simply dont know how to sell. Every market is like this... why should it be any differnt for snakes?

No offence, but I see you as the car company owner who got greedy and produced too many cars and just figured out his stock hit the floor.

Ben

this confusion. You are absolutely correct. I'm amazed each time I see a post like this. Quit trying to fight it, embrace it and move on. Oh and don't put all your eggs in one basket - especially pastels. I believe they makeup more of the market than any other morph and if they don't, they soon will. Diversify and be flexible - "Failure to change is failure to succeed!"
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

We are NOT car salesmen. Sell out of cars , make more cars. Sell out of snakes, wait a and hope to produce more next year. NO GOOD car dealership is selling out of cars. NO GOOD breeder is selling out of snakes. Selling out in this market means you sold out TOO CHEAP.
I sold out what I wanted in 2003 and 2004. Many know I was higher than most. I also had a higher quality animal for sale. I am NOT talking about Pastels being advertised this way. I am not worried about the market for Pastels myself. I am always concerned for my customers and their ability to produce and sell their offspring. I have been and will continue to be higher than most all my customers. I have told some my customers they were too low. Was I correct? Yes. They sold out in weeks or months.

"Seen for 2 months and under a rock for 10 months" Not good business.

"IF YOU HAVE $1500-$10000 TO SPEND ON SNAKE, THEN PLEASE HAVE $50 TO FEED THEM AND THEIR OFFSPRING FOR A YEAR"

*****I am not complaining about price folks. Please reread original post. I am talking about posting animals you don't have at much lower price than everyone else. They don't care about the Ball Python Market. I am saying those who breed should protect their own interest.*****

If you think that Pastel is the ONLY morph I have you're clueless. Yes, I have mastered the Pastel but I am not the only one. I have put myself in good position to master any combination with the Pastel in the future. Others have mastered Spiders. Others have mastered Lesser Platinums. Others have mastered Pieds. Others Pinstripes. DO YOU THINK ANY OF THEM MADE A MISTAKE MASTERING ANY ONE MORPH?

NO GREED HERE BIG BEN!
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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles

http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles

Hello, I don't understand why you started this thread. You say you get more for your animals than most breeders and that you have no problem selling what you produce. Whats the problem then...? Why the thread...? Andrew Potts

"What do you guys think of those selling morphs at lower prices than everyone else without having the snake in their possession and with or without a picture?"

This was the question.

Please answer.

This was the point of the thread.

Please answer.

If you cannot answer then no need to post.

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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles

http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles

Hello, I swear how other people advertize or what price they want for their snakes doesn't bother me one bit. Those ads you talk about are a fact of life, so just deal with them. Do I think they bring the price of animals down...? Not really. Not one thing brings the price down, lots of things do. The more ads like that the better. It just makes me look better because my ads wont be like those ads you mention. Will I have to price my animals accordingly...? Problably, so be it. As I said, those kind of ads I think are stupid but I myself love to see them. Take care and stay safe. Ciao. Andrew Potts

Andre - I'm not sure either where the whole price thing came into the conversation - I guess I just didn't follow someones logic. As far as brokering goes I can see some advantages for it - a smaller breeder being able to move there animals through a bigger breeders name - but then is the same expected quality there? Who knows.

But you are right there are more and more people that are selling animals that they don't even have in their possession and this could become a problem on many levels. Will it stop - no - is there anything that can be done - dont buy from them - whos going to buy what they cant see anyway? - Will it open the flood gates to scammers - most definately, already has.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I think if the animal is being brokered by a reputable person/business that is all fine and said, but if they are going to cut the market down because they can't sell it at a fair market price that's just hurting the industry in general.
I've personally thought about purchasing a Pinstripe or Lesser this season but after watching what's happened to the Spider then the Mojave. I'll put those on the backburner till next year and maybe be able to pick them at $5000k or less.

Don't sell out to brokers who cannot pay up front because if they paid say $5000.00 for and animal they won't be reselling them for $5250.00 when the fair market could be $7500.00

one problem with posting adds on the classifieds is that everyone that has snakes for sell post adds there. Now this wouldn't be a problem if those same people also explored other avenues to sell there animals. So what's going on is somebody paid 1.5k for a male pastel 2 yrs ago and spent another 2k on females to breed to that male. to the average keeper that is a huge investment. now 2 yrs later that person is trying to recoupe his/her investment but can't sell his pastel at market price because the "big" name people have them priced the same. now when he drops his/her price down $300 to make a little cash he gets slammed with hate male and how he's scamming people. his only avenue is to find a broker that will sell his animals at a commision. now because this broker has been in the business for a few years it is easier for him to sell the animals at market price or just below while the original breeder is still getting the 300 less than market price he asked for from the beginning. now this breeder is thinking why did I get into this business, "i can't sell anything, the market is flooded". And the truth is on some morphs at the prices they are at, it is flooded. we as breeders, big and small, must realize that we won't be selling to other breeders forever, all the morphs will get to pet prices eventually. Ok so pastel's are going to get there first, is this a bad thing? 100 beautiful pastels in pet shops at $350 brings just that many more people into the hobby that want to buy one of our crosses or a morph they can cross with the pastel they just bought. Andre I have nothing but respect for you. You are truly producing some of the best pastels out there by far, but they are going down in price, nothing we can do about it except produce more of them to offset the price drop. What morph will be the next to go the way of pet trade, spider, albino, pied, mojave, who knows, but one thing is certain, they will all get there eventually. just my .02 Josh Hutto
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

np
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

welcome to America

free trade.....

some people retail and some wholesale and some do what you are talking about......

I wholesale as much as possible and don't ship and don't advertise so I am happy with wholesale prices.....

some people get more for their animals because of a name or what/how they advertise........they should be happy.....

balls are wierd.....they are all over the market as for pricing.....take pastel males........they average $700 this year...yet some people ask 2 and 3 times this much by saying they are special.....IF someone is willing to buy them......that is great for the person selling but I think it makes the buyer look less -------(insert appropriate adjective).......(I can't think of a proper word).....

anyways......as said before........even when morphs drop there will be a new morph to make more money with and if that don't work......go for quantity

anyways...the classifieds are full of idiots (proper word).......and no they should not sell a critter before they have it at least .even if they havent paid for it yet.as long as it is friend to friend.........
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...........and with that stick....he would dig up cobra and python eggs...............................

I am new Ball pythons Hobbist... Isn't all about supply and demand? Anything is only worth what a customer is willing to pay for it.
Who really pays top dollar for new morphs ? (as beautiful as they may be!) The top 2-5% of the market and Breeders? (and some through trades)From what I can see there is a big void in the prices of BP's:
50-150$ for a normal, and only a pastel is the next step up for a visible morph. 500-1000$ seems to be a void -given that hets Just don't have the instant visual gratification. Maybe the old Morphs will not hold their prices. At lower prices don't you feel the volume would increase? Isn't it the responsibility of leaders in the industry to constantly be coming up with new variants ?...Evolve or Die?
Also consider the long life and breedable years... couldn't a 2,000 BP quite conceivably bring in 100,000 in it's life time even selling the offspring at moderate prices? ( and recoup cost with the first clutches?)
Isn't it a bit like fashion? Out at Prada initialy for $2000- 3 months later the department stores have if from some other "bridge" designer for 350, A moderate copany would Knock it off for a 50.00 retail 6 months later, and Walmart will have it 1 year later for 12.99.
It's a natural depreciation.... built in obsolescence.
By the time Walmart has it out, the top designers have moved on to the next. Either that, or they have a brand name with a customer loyalty who cares more for the status of owning an original than price.
Isn't it the key to staying on top constantly evolving newness, and offering quality and service?
By the way I paid top dollar for my georgeous pastel male and do not regret one penny I spent even though I have seen many average and mediocre ones sold for 250-500$ less.
MHO
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

andre, what I think I am starting to see ,is what happened to colubrid snakes in the early 1990s.overproduction by many greedy breeders.im sure by now that most people have heard about the pair of mojaves that sold for $4500.00 for the pair.at daytona. once that gets out very few will want to pay more than that for a pair.look around a all the higher priced ball pythons available.most people will not pay the overinflated prices,and will wait for a deal.

"overproduction by many greedy breeders"

People are greedy, fact of human nature. Capitalism embraces this greed and uses it to run a more efficient system.

To me it would be worse if greed lead people to limit production so they could charge more and have a snake fewer others have. Good thing that will not happen in a free market where high prices feed high production to do the huge amount of work needed to make ball python morphs more common.

LOL..LOL..LOL..LOL. That has to be the funniest post i've read in a long time. Dude, you should be a stand up comic, complaining about the prices being to low. That's so freaking funny I almost pissed my pants laughing. Laterz Andrew Potts

Big breeders have total control over the market when they have something new, they can charge whatever they feel for a certain animal.. But that all changes after you sell that first clutch. For instance, when I buy the first Fireball het available and hypothetically pay XX,XXX amount of dollars, by the time I raise and breed him, I'm ready to make a return and then some.. The problem is, who is going to buy the Fireball from me for XX,XXX when they can get it from the guy I bought it from.. Now I've got a bunch of babies I can't sell for "Market", time to drop my prices and STILL make a boat load of money compared to my investment, the cycle continues until it reaches the pet store... So the way a BIG breeder could protect it's profit margin would be to control the output of your NEW snake.. But I don't see many breeders holding back, they are producing all they can, almost crashing their own market... 120 clutches in a year of near untouchable animals, how much money do you need?? I remember seeing on someone's site a page full of snakes and the total added up to well over $800,000, and that was just ONE page... Don't get mad your snakes are being devalued, they are getting down to where they belong, the 12yr old kid who loves reptiles, the people who are in love with their pet, normal male ball python, those people will be able to afford that untouchable snake one day and not see it as a profitable item, but a pet.
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

Hey Andre,

>>IF YOU ARE PART OF THE MARKET THEN PROTECT IT!

Well, I'm not sure how long you have been around and doing all this. I'm not an 'old timer'. I've kept Ball Pythons for 13 years now (breeding a bunch of normals most of those years) and there is one thing I know for a fact. 'The market' is an illusion to an extent. I don't have all the crazy morphs... just a few. Personally, I will only buy from a VERY small number of people and I do know this: CASH talks... BS walks. I've bought and sold some relatively high end animals over the years and one thing is pretty universal: Most people (big breeders included) are generally cash poor (myself included at times) and drive VERY hard bargains for things they want. Now, I'm not trying to be critical, just calling it the way I personally see it. Yes, I do believe in a market, but to an extent. I don't believe in a market that lists het leucistics for $40K each. Do you think a breeder can easily recoup $125,000 on one imported snake? Maybe... but I'm willing to bet not in more cases as the years progress! My opinion is a large number of high end transactions are still just trade with some cash involved. Yes, I do know a few folks who paid over $25K for a snake, but that is a very limited number and NOT the general public.

Now, can you make back money on a pair of $1200 hets??? You bet!!! And the people who buy the hets will also be able to make back their investment too in due time, but not at huge gains, but a gain none the less. This will likely get them into another project to keep the fun going or put some 'petty' cash in their pocket to keep things rolling along. Things at 'the bottom' are only going to get better over the years in my opinion is that volume will be something required to generate larger amounts of capital. In case you don't know (you likely do): There are a few folks out there gearing up for HUGE production on a few morphs (and I do mean HUGE). Things are ONLY going to get cheaper especially when say 500 albinos hit the market every season from just one breeder. In case you are skeptical of that, don't be: It's going to happen sooner than you think. MUCH sooner! But, that's fine in the end since more folks on the lower rungs will be able to afford them and then it will all be a numbers game. My opinion is that volume will rule, not the limited high end numbers (something I have first hand experience with on other things).

I'm in this as a hobby, not for a living, so price protection is not a major factor for me. Yes, I'd always like to get top dollar on things, but there are also realistic prices for a lot of these animals and I'm more than willing to bet that if ALL the people making transactions were completely honest (doubtful in this 'industry' (sorry to be a pessimist)) that most things sold for cash are a heck of a lot cheaper than you would like to know about. Just my worthless opinions as usual...

Matt
p.s. - Sorry if I missed the point on anything, I'm beat tonight!
p.s.s. - Here is the ONE and only albino I hatched this season. He is a keeper, so no $ will be had for him, but I'm hopeful this next season will produce more of the white and yeller snakes and 'the market' will still be interested in acquiring these.

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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

I'm with ya as far as the "market" goes, but I think that incredible albino would be happy HERE.......
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www.NEWReptiles.com

Thanks on the compliment! He REALLY is a nice (pretty high-contrast) albino. I've got a bunch of het females I hope will be ready this fall (and even more for the next season), so wish me luck producing more just as good as him! Best of luck with your breeding season... and, yes, it's all still 'win-win' with Ball morphs in my opinion. It's just how much $ you can make that will change in time, and the change is coming FAST for a lot of the morphs in my opinion.

Thanks!

Matt
p.s. - You've got a nice website there! (and animals too).

>>I'm with ya as far as the "market" goes, but I think that incredible albino would be happy HERE.......
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>>www.NEWReptiles.com
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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

It's a hobby after all, not a "market"

my opinion.

you have to stay on top of the game. Like someone said before, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you keep combining top dollar morphs and making new things then you will make some cash, but reproducing large amounts of a not so high dollar snake will end up in having lots of them left over.

A friend of mine breeds some boa morphs, strictly for hobby. He bought his original arabesques from Kahl, he bred his original pair in 02 and kept some and wholesaled the rest. Arabesques used to sell big time, last year he just wanted to get rid of them and not worry about shipping them so he traded all his litters to Glades for roughly 300 trade value. These litters were arabesque het albinos, which galdes then sold for 800 a piece. That's peanuts, 300 credit for them? A lot of people sold them on the classifieds here for 3500 dollars. This year he just produced arabesques, no hets, and Glades sold them for 1200. 400 dollars more, a year later, and no het? Well he gets his money, which isn't much, and the wholesaler gets theirs. He also sold his adult proven breeder kahl albino male for 700. Peanuts, it baffles me, but he's happy.

Andre, I have a lot of respect for you, you have given me a lot of great advice. I really hope you are working on some projects involving other morphs though.

Cole Maas

Your absolutly right!