Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everybody, I am new to this forum, and I'm glad I found it. I just verified with the CA Dept. of Fish and Game that it is legal to collect reptiles on Sept. 24th, this year's "Free Fishing Days", without purchasing a fishing license (of course, the daily bag limits and all other normal restrictions still apply). I live in Los Angeles, and I will be heading out that day to go herping. My question for you all is, since I have only one day, what would be the best area to go to in order to be sure I find a variety of animals? I am most interested in finding a pair of chuckwallas (I'm also posting this message on the chuckwalla forum) with good coloration (I like the ones with lots of red or lots of clearly defined black/white marking). I would also like to see some crotaphytus and Horned Lizards, as well as kingsnakes or rosy boas. Anybody have any specific suggestions for a legal area I could visit where I would likely find several of these animals (hopefully within about three hours' drive of LA)?

Thanks,

Angus

You are willing to drive 200+ miles round trip using gasoline that costs over $3/gallon but you are too cheap to shell out $15 for a fishing license so you can herp the rest of the year?

I'm no expert in SoCal herps but most of the species you want won't be easy to find in September. Why not buy the license and herp next spring/summer when it is productive?
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

You're interested in collecting a pair of chucks, when the possession limit is 2 (if I recall correctly without looking it up)--you can't sell any offspring either. Same goes for most of the other species you mention. You should move out of state.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Amd you collected how many when you visited????????

>>You're interested in collecting a pair of chucks, when the possession limit is 2 (if I recall correctly without looking it up)--you can't sell any offspring either. Same goes for most of the other species you mention. You should move out of state.
>>-----
>>Chris McMartin
>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Amd you collected how many when you visited????????

You might have me confused with someone else. I've never even SEEN a CA chuck!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

you are so right. That was another Chris.
Dohhhhh.
(big red face)

>>>>Amd you collected how many when you visited????????
>>
>>You might have me confused with someone else. I've never even SEEN a CA chuck!
>>-----
>>Chris McMartin
>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

(all you Chris's look alike).

>>you are so right. That was another Chris.
>>Dohhhhh.
>>(big red face)
>>
>>
>>>>>>Amd you collected how many when you visited????????
>>>>
>>>>You might have me confused with someone else. I've never even SEEN a CA chuck!
>>>>-----
>>>>Chris McMartin
>>>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet
>>-----
>>Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
>>Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...one more reason why folks otta not post personal attacks on forums...

Good to see you back, Chris M.
Todd hughes

Actually, I was considering buying a fishing license, which in CA costs $38 if I remember correctly, but I just moved here, and the license is only good for the calendar year, which means it would expire on Dec. 31, and, since I am unsure of whether I will be lucky finding anything this time of year, and the fact that I probably won't be able to use it again between now and December, I would prefer to wait and buy a license next year, when I can actually get a year's use out of it. In addition, as far as the next post and selling offspring, I don't plan to try to go into business--I have no interest in selling any animals. I know the laws in CA are wierd and seemingly arbitrary--the only native reptiles that can be bred and sold are common kingsnakes, gopher snakes, and rosy boas (or any native reptile if it happens to be albino, which can be bred, sold, transported, etc. at will), but you have to have a special breeder's permit. The Dept. of Fish and Game doesn't want people to breed any other animals, and you are required to GIVE THEM AWAY within 45 days of birth/hatching if you do happen to breed them. So, ultimately, YES, I am willing to spend $2.95 a gallon for gas (local price) and drive a few hours round trip on this one Saturday, hoping I will see or find something, and I was just hoping anybody who had some recommendations would be willing to share them so I didn't completely waste my time and money, since this will probably be my only opportunity to go out for the rest of the year. I didn't expect anybody to share their favorite secret spot or take me by the hand and lead me around, I was just hoping for some basic suggestions of a few locations where people have had success before, since I am new to the area, and a beginner. Really, my main worry is making sure the spots I go to are legal, that I don't somehow end up crossing onto protected land without knowing it, that I don't drive around all day wondering if it's OK to stop here and look. If anybody does have any suggestions of a location or a trail/drive/loop in Southern California that I might try, I would still very much appreciate hearing it. If not, I will just go with the rudimentary range maps I have found and hope for the best.

Thanks,

Angus

...if they find chucks at your house. You need it for "take" AND "possesion". If they catch you with chucks at your house without a VALID license it's the same as getting caught "taking" on in the field without it.

No, actually, you only need the license to possess the animal "in the bag", meaning in the field. Anybody in CA can own two Sauromalus ater without a license. You don't need a license to keep chuckwallas you might have bought, so as long as you acquired the animals legally, and you have no more than two, there's no worry. The DFG agent I spoke to the other day went on to assure me that the limit was two animals per person, so there's no problem giving two to your wife, another two to your daughter, another two to your son, and keeping two yourself.

Angus

Anybody in CA can own two Sauromalus ater without a license.

The law "as written" could be interpreted to mean you need a license even to possess, even if they were purchased. I've seen discussions of other states' laws where the law is interpreted as meaning you have to have a license that was valid for the time the animals were acquired (e.g. if I were to catch two chucks on 20 Sep, I would need to hold on to my license for 20 Sep for as long as I owned the chucks. I have no idea as to how you could prove WHEN you actually caught the lizards!).

Of course, the enforcement of the "letter of the law" is lax in this scenario. I don't see LE following people home from the pet store to check if they have proper permits for Cal kings!

You don't need a license to keep chuckwallas you might have bought, so as long as you acquired the animals legally,

Always keep receipts for purchased natives.

The DFG agent I spoke to the other day went on to assure me that the limit was two animals per person, so there's no problem giving two to your wife, another two to your daughter, another two to your son, and keeping two yourself.

This exact scenario was brought up on another forum. It seems the law's "meaning" or "intent" is in the eyes of the individual warden/agent you talk to. Did you get the agent's name? There are a couple out there who tend to enforce the laws differently than others.

Warden Kyle Chang told me I couldn't take banded geckos I caught (with a valid license) out of state (untrue), but I honored that interpretation and had CA residents gift some to me (those folks were using them as feeders--another bizarre way to follow the letter of the law, if not the spirit: Possess two until they're eaten by your snakes, then go catch two more, repeat as necessary; yet I can't start a breeding colony!).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

>>Warden Kyle Chang told me I couldn't take banded geckos I caught (with a valid license) out of state (untrue),

Again, the laws are so poorly written that interpretations vary widely. In this case I've mentioned, I think he was hung up on "export" as used in the law. I found the definition of "export" elsewhere in the code as meaning to take out of the state and sell (which I wasn't). I think he was interpreting "export" as anyone taking their legally-acquired animals with them.

I wonder what CA residents do if they're military and have to move out of state...
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

You know, I don't think I did write down the name of the particular warden I spoke with. He was in the Southern district, and he was Latino, but I can't recall his name. He was very friendly. I actually thought at the time that I should make a record of it. I prefer to have written confirmation, so I have written to CA Dept. of Fish and Game for clarification. I'll post the response when I get it.

Angus

Here is the response I got from the CA Dept. of Fish and Game regarding the question of whether a license is required just to own or "possess" native herps in California. It verifies that a license is NOT required to keep up to the legal limit of native reptiles in your home. You may want to save a copy of the letter in case you ever run into a situation where there is any doubt--I know I plan to keep it on file.

Thanks,

Angus

Here's the letter I got:

Angus;

Our license requirements are:

Anyone 16 years of age and older must have a fishing license to take
any kind of fish, mollusk, invertebrate, amphibian or crustacean in
California, except for persons angling from a public pier in ocean or
bay waters. A license is required to take reptiles, except for
rattlesnakes. The exveption is on free fishing days when a license is
not required.

Take is defined as "Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish,
amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or
attempting to do so." However, you are not required to possess a fishing
license to have a legally taken limit of fish or reptiles in your home.

Dennis P. Lee, Supervising Biologist
Fisheries Programs Branch
California Department of Fish and Game
1701 Nimbus Road, Suite C
Rancho Cordova, CA 95670
Field Station (916) 358-2833
FAX (916) 358-2857
Cellular (916) 952-6915
dlee@dfg.ca.gov

So, if he brings them home on free take day, they can come bust him for possession the following day? After collecting you have to buy a license annually? Not true. Only required to take, not to keep.
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

Productive herping rarely happens on the day you have to do it but more when the conditions are right.
I'd go when the conditions are favorable instead of heading out to avoid a license fee. Besides......just a location will do you little good unless you understand the area, the current weather and it's species.

Chucks and horned lizards are not "throw 'em in a tank" species and require specialized lighting and feeding.
They will perish as thousands have in the past in the pet trade.
I know this all sounds like crap and not what you want to hear but it's the truth. Considr these things before making your journey. Kenny S>

I didn't plan to "throw 'em in a tank", exactly. I was hoping I could find a couple of chucks, a few other lizards, a kingsnake, a rosy boa, and a couple of coral snakes that wandered over from AZ, and I planned to keep them all together in a two gallon stockpot on the back of my stove, where I hoped the pilot light would be enough to keep them warm. I was going to feed them chicken-and-dumplings.

SERIOUSLY, though, I am being reminded of why I don't often post on public forums--nobody knows you, and everybody seems to assume the worst of you. When I said earlier that I was a beginner, I didn't mean that I was a beginner to herps. I have kept herps for years, including a chuckwalla that I bought as an adult that lived for over 11 years. My father is a veterinarian, and, while he didn't exactly specialize in herps, he did see many of them in his practice, and I have been around them and other animals all my life. I am aware of the very specialized needs of different animals with regards to temp, humidity, full spectrum lighting, specialized diet, etc., and I would never get an animal (like a horned lizard) that I couldn't easily provide for. Personally, I consider chuckwallas easy and fascinating. All that said, I AM a beginner to collecting wild animals. I haven't ever taken an animal from the wild and tried to keep it permanently. As a kid, I might catch a lizard and keep it for a day or so before letting it go, and as a five year old, when I could easily find several horned lizards every day, I used to carry horned lizard hatchlings around in a match box in my pocket (I'm not kidding), but, luckily, my mother or grandmother would make me let the animal go after an hour or so. So, I am a beginner to FIELD HERPING, especially in Southern California, and that is why I was looking to this forum for advice. Thanks to everybody who offered suggestions.

Angus

I shall give you one clue on were you can find all of what you are looking for. Chuckwalls mountains. Now it is up to you to find were the best place is to find them.

You don't have to buy a season license, you can buy a one day license and go when conditions are right. Who knows maybe that day will be perfect. As far somewhere to find those species, your going to have to have one hell of a day to find exactly what your looking for. I'm not sure about the chucks but if you want to find some snakes. Riverside-Beaumont during the day and palmsprings area at night will give you your best bet.

Rudy