Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So we were at the show last weekend and my husband who's only part in family project is to build racks and pay the bills sees all these snakes that are there for $10K-$40K. He askes me who buys a $25K snake? I explain to him you buy the snake - breed it - sell offspring - make you money back - buy something else - etc. You know the cycle. After a few more questions about breeders, new morphs etc. etc. on our drive home he quickly points out that from the sound of it the ball python business is nothing more than a pyramid scheme.

The big breeders at the top raking in the money - they have the new morph which the people below pay top dollar for then they make the hets which the people below buy to make the visuals or more het which are sold to the next level below for the people who are hoping to score.

By the time anyone gets to move up a level the people at the top have produced bigger better things and everyone is back down to where they started. Even after 10 years there is not a big calling for BP morphs outside of the pyramid the sales are primarily between those of us inbreeding. So is there really a market or is it just a pyramid?

Thoughts opinions ...
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

the secret is out of the bag....i think that is exactly what happens, i just am too new at this to be taken seriously. im glad you brought it up, sure to be a long post....

Deal

The ball python morphs have only been around for 10 years or less prominantly. Yes the "big" breeders charge top dollar, because they pay top dollar for the unusual imports... they go through the trouble to prove them out... then yes they go through a number of serious years of investors befor there are enough on the market that they are low enough prices for everyone to buy. Look at corn snakes... it was the same story for many years... but now you often see albinos for the same price as a snow for the same price as . Some day they will fall... it may seem like a scam... and some people try to make it into one... just look a few posts below where someone was telling everyone they shouldnt sell their snakes for the prices they want to.... now thats a scam.

The way I look at it is all these people are paying thousands of dollars for a yellow and black snake insted of a brown and black snake. If you want something changing and neat piebalds fit the bill... no two are the same... differnt amounts of white... but still just a snake in the end. MOST of the people who do this enjoy it. If you have never kept and bred animals for many years, you know not of the personal reward it can bring when you produce something new... even something basic can be very fun!!

If you want to be that big breeder and be at the top, you can be! Just go to africa and make deals with the people breeding and collecting the snakes... when they find a good one, put in your bid, bring it back to america, try to get it to eat, breed, and stay alive... when it finally produces a small few babies... if it ever does... you can then say you have gone to the top of the pyramid. If this is a pyramid so is every other breeding comunity... horses... cows... pigs... chickens...

You know all the chickens came from one kind of bird that didnt really look like a chicken? There are hundreds of kinds of chickens now... all from one kind of bird... I supose every time you eat a chicken sandwich you just feed the pyramid.

Ben

If everyone is out trying to make millions, yes I can see your point, but you didn't think it through.

Original Top Dog breeder buys new morph from connection in Africa for 10,000 (not guaranteed genetic yet)
Two years it proves out and he has 5 young at 25,000
Devotes 4 more females to project and produces 15 young a year for the continuation of this exercise (probably would devote more which helps to drive the price down, but lets be consistent)

Person A buys codominant male at 25,000
Two years produces 15 young from 5 females and sells for 10,000 a piece (the new going price)
Continues producing same amount over time

Person B buys a male at 10,000
Two years later produces 15 young from 5 females and sells for 2,000 a piece (new going price)
Continues producing same amount over time

Person C buys a male at 2,000 dollars
Two years later produces 15 young from 5 females and sells for 500 a piece (new going price)
Continues producing same amount over time

Person D buys a male at 500 dollars
Two years later produces 15 young from 5 females and sells for 150 a piece (new going price)
Continues producing same amount over time

Person E buys a baby for 150 dollars
Two years later produces 3 young from 1 female and sells them for 75 a piece (new going price and final low)
Continues producing same amount over time

Person F buys a baby for 75 dollars with no intention for reproducing it, they just like the way it looks.

Price per each year

1-25,000
2-15,000
3-10,000
4-5,000
5-2,000
6-1,000
7-500
8-250
9-150
10-100
11-75

Original Big Dog Breeder makes
636,125-10,000(cost of initial snake) =626,125

Person A makes
286,125-25,000(cost of initial snake)=261,125

Person B makes
61,125-10,000(cost of initial snake)=51,125

Person C makes
16,125-2,000(cost of initial snake)=14,125

Person D makes
4,875-500(cost of initial snake)=4,375

Person E makes
1,125-150(cost of initial snake)=975

Person F makes-a good purchase and gets the pet he wants for a resonable price

As you see everyone makes money on the deal, the bottom level guy gets what he wants, a healthy pet that he likes the look of. Everybody wins. Those who were willing to invest the large sums of money early make the most profit, but that is how all business works. We all know that prices depreciate and that the bottom level guys aren't making a career out of this, but that is not the point. This is a hobby for most and a business for a select few, never forget that.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

For one, what business doesnt have people at the top, selling a product to one level, then that level sells to the next and so on.

The ball python is the most popular pet python there is in the US.(to its misfortune). Granted not to many albino balls are for sell in the every day pet shop, but the specialty ones you can find them. Thats were you will hit your consumers, the bottom level of any business. The people who spend the money, to keep the shop in business, the shop that buys from the distributer and keeps it in business, and then the producer that is only in business because there IS A DEMAND FOR WHAT HE CAN PRODUCE.....

Its business 101 and granted its a Pyramid but its not a scheme!

Just my Opinion!

It can't be a scheme if you're actually selling a PRODUCT or COMMODITY.

But definitely a pyramid. No question.

Definition:

"A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered."

How is that possibly applicable to Ball Pythons. Unless of course people are buying that new invisible morph.
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_____

Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

The only part of this that could be construed as a scam....
Would be the lies that some noob tells himself when he buys a 10,000 snake and is not succesful with his investment due to lack of research(of husbandry,breeding,etc),or practice.
Another one would be to tell yourself that they aren't going to drop in price in the years to follow.However this is precisely creates the new "bottom bricks" in the "pyramid".
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Actually according to the FTC a pyramid scheme can have a product involved (and often does in order legitimize the scheme)- products are usually over priced - and are primarily sold or marketed to the people in the pyramid or with limited release to the general public.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Hey! Leave my new Invisible Ball out of this!

Chris

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mean people suck

Have ya named that thing yet? Male or female - I'd think if male he should be about breeding size by now ... can't wait to see if its dominant or recessive.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

It is by no means a scheme. Reason being is this. In a pyramid scheme you cant even obtain capital to better your odds. If I want I could apply for a business loan, get a couple hundred grand. Purchase hundres of animals, and if I have the know how, produce the quantity and quality of a big breeder. What it takes is capital. The big breeders are just ahead of the game because they were the ones that took the initial risk and put thier capital into the market. Now, can you really expect to catch up to The Barkers, or Ralph Davis, knowing that you havent even earned any respect or a name for yourself in the business.

If you want an example of someone that started little and got pretty big, then look at Morph King. The popped up out of no where and are doing pretty darn well. Now, if they create or import a new morph, then they will hold a segment of the market. This is a business once you go big. Or you can purchase a few less expensive animals, trade them, sell them, and get more, and keep it a hobby.

Todd Conn AKA "Doc"
Sincityreptiles@aol.com
XxDrPxX@aol.com

Not a pyramid scheme, a business for those who want to make it a business, and a hobby for those who make it a hobby.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

In a Pyramid scheme the top guy gets a portion of the sales from the people he recruited. This works downward to form a Pyramid. A portion of each sale filters upward until it reaches the top guy. I don't think Pete Kahl is profiting from the Pieds he sold in the beginning. Its just a supply and demand game. Dave Barker said it best.. they're all the same snake with different paint jobs. LMHO... Ron
P.S. Chris, That invisible snake of yours is amazing...
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The Crawl Space

"P.S. Chris, That invisible snake of yours is amazing..."

Sorry. He's not for sale at this time. I need to prove him out first.

Chris
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mean people suck

The profits from the animals I produce are mine - nobody gets a kickback.

I like the invisiball too but it must a PIA when it gets loose!

Christy

THis is how any & every market goes............there is always someone on top...........and so on & so on...........

My $.02

Jared h

Two big differences between balls and cars - cars are bought by the general population not just those in the pyramid - it cost just as much for a blue honda as it does a red honda - a ball is a ball we aren't comparing a honda with a lambourgini.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Where the top guy usually bails once he made his $$$.....then the suckers on the bottom pay for it...............

It just happens that 10 years ago there were only a handfull of breeders dedicated to ball pythons........now a days there are more almost daily.........and with it comes lower and lower prices on morphs that are very undeserving of it. There is a lot of "competition" on the net.................it's hard to post an ad at times..............you put a snake up and 2 seconds later there is one for a couple hundred bucks less than yours .............and again............another ad will pop up by someone else with the same thing for cheaper........You can alsmost count on it happening..........

You know how many people are doing this strictly for the money...........a lot..........and the more that hear that "you can get rich quick by breeding ball pythons.......".........the more people we will have in this same business........

If you attended Daytona or Anaheim as I am sure was the same way........I saw more ball pythons that just about any other snake........I mean it was cool to see sooooooooo many different morphs and such...........but I mean it was also kinda crazy..........pretty soon were going to end up with the National Ball Python Breeders Expo..........

Only thing thats different between this and a pyramid is that the top guys are still here.........they are the "founders" of this particular hobby in which we all follow...........I for one have been here for a long time...........and I plan on doing this for an even longer time...........It should be about the love and excitement of breeding and keeping these snakes............

again..........just my $.02

Jared

Hey,

A Blue "normal" Honda will cost less than a Red Honda with all the upgrades... And some colors can cost more if specialy ordered... (ex. purple, pink, shimmering colors etc.)

Same with snakes- A "normal" cost less than a Het "upgrades" and special ordered colors "morphs" It you want the nicest you pay for it...

Just the way i see it. Now only if the Banana Ball price would come down =)
Hunters Guide

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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

True but there really isn't any upgrade - the don't have extra eyes or a better appetite or poop less - just differnt "paint jobs" - and well as I can't speak for all dealerships - but when my freind bought her PT crusier and special ordered turquoise it cost her like $400 more not $20K more.

Oh well maybe the car analogy doesn't work.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

True...but i wonder what Orange County Choppers pays for the custom paint jobs that go on their creations.
...and they(those paints jobs)aren't able to breed and reproduce themselves...to get another one you must either pay that man again,or learn to do it for yourself. ~
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Well put Jared, over time we will "weed out" those that are in it strictly for the money , as people that are only in it for money will have animals for sale that are not the same quality as those of us that actually care about the animals instead of just looking at them as dollar signs!!! Once some of these morphs drop down in price some will get out because there isn't enough $ to keep them interested , and at that point we will see who is in it for the $ and who isn't... Either way I'm with you I plan on being here when Albinos are $750 each and Pieds are $1500 each, that's alot less than they are now , and these prices should be down the road a ways but either way count me in !!! Take care Jared... Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles.

Go in any pet store, there they are. It just happens that the "normal" morph is numerous and therefore inexpensive.

The only reason you don't see albino balls at Petland is because there is not yet sufficient quantities of them.

Also, I am curious how you define "In the pyramid." If someone purchases a pastel, are they suddenly "in the pyramid"? Or are they a member of the general public? If they breed the pastel to their normal female, does that make them "in the pyramid"?

What if they had two normal balls and bred them, are they also in the pyramid?

It seems like you are defining everyone who purchases a morph as in the pyramid. If this is the case, then your definition makes an unsupported presupposition that you use to try to prove your point:

If someone purchases a morph, they must be in the pyramid (not the general public). Therefore, this is a pyramid scheme because morphs are only sold to those in the pyramid.

This sounds like "Apples are red, so if it is red it must be an apple"

Pastels are already well in the price range that someone might buy just for a pet. People spend $2,000 on dogs and horses, cats, and birds all the time - AS PETS. Albinos are not out of reach either, nor are ghosts. But, the problem is half the fun of having these animals is hatching more, and the moment someone decides that would be "fun", and tries to do it, then they become part of the "pyramid" at least the way I am understanding your posts.

Christy

The difference between the two rests in the customer base. In pyramid schemes, the only customers are the investors themselves. In the Ball Python market, the customers include both investors (breeders) and the general public (non-breeding pet owners).

As with all the Ball Python morphs, the only CURRENT customers are the investors themselves. However, this will EVENTUALLY change once supply exceeds demand enough for prices to lower to general public affordability.

Hence the difference...

Chris
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mean people suck

>>The difference between the two rests in the customer base. In pyramid schemes, the only customers are the investors themselves. In the Ball Python market, the customers include both investors (breeders) and the general public (non-breeding pet owners).

Chris, how many non-breeding ball python people are plunking down $25K for a snake?

>>As with all the Ball Python morphs, the only CURRENT customers are the investors themselves. However, this will EVENTUALLY change once supply exceeds demand enough for prices to lower to general public affordability.
>>

The general public as far as I can disern is willing to pay about $500 for a morph some will go about $1000 but at that point then they tend to need to become breeders (thus they become part of the investor pyramid) to recoup losses. When a majority of ball morphs reach $500 and are available to non-breeding public - how many people are going to still be breeding?
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

To answer your first question: None. These are the breeders only. If you read a bit lower you will find the general consumers come later down the road. The first stage is just preparing for the general consumer market.

To answer your second question: Plenty of people will still be breeding. Look at the many other reptiles being bred -- cornsnakes, geckos, milksnakes, velociraptors, etc. These animals are normally within the $100 or less price range.

In fact, I'm starting a small Cornsnake colony right now. Why? For the fun of it. I think the different flavors are really cool. And these are fun beginner snakes for the general consumers, too. I certainly am not planning on breeding Cornsnakes for the money! LOL

I think the problem with deciding if the Ball Python market is a pyramid scheme rests in the individual breeder's intention. If the individual breeder's intention is for the immediate financial return only with no intention of ever breeding for the general consumer (as is likely the case with most breeders), then it could easily be argued as a pyramid scheme. However, if the individual breeder's intention is to eventually breed for the general consumer, then the Ball Python market can by no means be considered a pyramid scheme. It would then be a legitimate investment.

It all boils down to the two intentions -- are you breeding for the money only, or are you breeding for the fun of it (where the money is just an added bonus)?

Breeding for money only -- Pyramid scheme.
Breeding for the fun of it -- No pyramid scheme.

Chris
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mean people suck

Hello, C.J., you earned two gold stars in my book. What exactly that means I don't know, but I think it's way good. For love or money....hmmmm....I'll take love any day. Thanks for the post. Andrew Potts

LOL I love gold stars! Thanks!

What I'm saying is...the people who believe the Ball Python market is a form of pyramid scheme are ONLY considering other breeders as their customer base, and they are ignoring the big picture. This is the wrong way to approach this business. The truth is that all Ball Python morphs will eventually and inevitably reach the same general customer base -- petshop-goers. If your Ball Python breeding plans do not include that twelve year old kid who wanders into his local petshop on his birthday, then you need to re-evaluate getting into this business.

Simple as that...

Chris
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mean people suck

Hi Chris,

Well, even though none of the morphs and hets I am producing are going to that 12 year old, the reality is he's already benefiting.

My normal animals from co-dom clutches are going to the pet store. And, the kid who gets one of my animals will not be getting a $7 import shipped from Africa to Miami to Columbus in March. He's not going to be getting a dehydrated, emaciated animal that has not yet eaten a thing. He will not get an animal that's probably going to die in two weeks and sour him on the whole BP experience.

The kid will be getting a healthy, well started animal that is read to thrive in the aquarium in his room.

I don't personally think the market is going to crash. I do think that various morphs are going to become more numerous and as that happens, they will drop in price. Eventually these will be within reach of the hobbiest or pet owner who wants something pretty but does not intend to breed. There is room for breeders/investors on every level.

Christy

If its for fun only -why charge $25K?

LOL
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

My point was that the market is going to have to crash before the general public (non breeders) even thinks about buying morphs.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Exactly! And that's where we separate the pyramid schemers (money) from the real enthusiasts (fun)!

I've said it before; I'll say it again. I can't wait for the market to crash. At least 95% of the current breeders will bail on the market. The only breeders left will be Ralph Davis, NERD, and little ol' me!

Bring on the crash! And sell me your Albino and Piebald colonies cheap!

Chris
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mean people suck

I agree but "if" the market does crash making these snakes available to the general public not just the pyramid - do you think that the die hard breeders will still be doing it to the scale they are now?

Keep in mind I'm just playing devils advocate - LOL - I honestly don't think there is ever going to be anything but a very small market outside of the pyramid.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Tosha, playing the Devil's advocate is all I ever do! =)

Yes. I do believe the big players will continue to produce as many animals...if not more. As the price drops, more sales are needed to balance things out. I may only need to produce four or five Albinos next summer to reach my hobbiest goal of paying rent for an entire year. (Wouldn't that be nice!) As the market price drops to half, I'll need to sell eight to ten Albinos to reach the same goal. No sweat. As the years go by, my Albino colony grows in size anyway.

Chris
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mean people suck

Now multiply that by 3000 other people trying to do the same thing. And what do you get? How big of a market do you think you've got? Most people don't like snakes - some that do wouldn't have them because they don't like feeding them - a great many of the ones that do buy them don't take care of them, have to get rid of them because they are going off to college - married someone that doesn't like the snake, moved someplace and can't keep it, etc. etc. And these are just normals.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Let's see...there are roughly 295 Million people in the US of A. That's a rather large potential customer base. Reptiles are growing in popularity. And as these many colorful morphs hit the general public market (petshops), more of that 295 Million person potential customer base will be interested in purchasing a new Ball Python morph.

I don't foresee many breeders making millions at that time, but you can still have a fun hobby that makes a little extra cash.

Chris
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mean people suck

.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

....dreams are goals with no deadlines Ron
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The Crawl Space

If someone pays $5000.00 for a male morph and has several racks of females they are doing it for the money. No doubt they love the snakes but at those prices its for the money. I LOVE my snakes also but I do the morphs for the money. Like Chris said you can offset some expensives and enjoy a wonderful hobby at the same time. I just admit to my intentions.. If it were just for the love I'd have all garter snakes (my favorite). Ron
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The Crawl Space

Of course it's partially about the money. It's a real nice bonus. And it helps us maintain these animals virtually for free as we build our collections. The problem arises when it's ONLY about the money.

I have to admit, I kept a Ball Python as a pet for nearly five years before I discovered that different morphs even existed. When I found out how much money could (theoretically) be made breeding these morphs, I was instantly swept into the world of Ball Python breeding. (The allure of money can be lusty.) I was in the process of buying some nice expensive codoms earlier this year until I started getting migraines from thinking about money and profits all the time. Finally I realized, "Hey! This is supposed to be FUN, right?" That's when I asked myself the honest questions and adjusted my attitude. I suddenly remembered why I liked snakes in the first place -- they're just so freaking cool! Now I want to breed all kinds of user-friendly snakes like Cornsnake morphs and Ball Python morphs and share them with the rest of the world. That's my goal now. And if I make a little money in the process...cool beans!

Chris
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mean people suck

..
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The Crawl Space

Why would I charge $25K per animal?

I would charge $25K because I could. The money is a good bonus. I ain't stupid. What I'm saying is that I would try to breed these animals regardless of market price.

Chris
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mean people suck

Well if by then i am producing 20 albinos a year(among other projects)...then i'll still be doing it.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

If I hear one more person say "just look at the cornsnake market" when talking about ball pythons!! OK people heres the deal. Corns produce MANY more eggs than BP's. They double clutch. You can breed them every year. BP's are not corn snakes. OK. The market for them is a hell of a lot different. Just look at ghost/hypo's............still a shortage of them and they were discovered years ago........It will be a very long time before an albino BP is the same price as a normal.

As for being a pyramid.........most businesses operate like that.......thats marketing for ya........

Not sure about the scheme part of it... one sorta is "scheming" themselves when buying into some of the high dollar morphs. For instance, when we purchased our male Mojave last year, we paid $10,000. The breeders we purchased him from told us that mojaves would most likely sell for $30,000 each this year. In fact, every breeder we talked to that had Mojaves for sale told us the same thing, with the exception of Nigel from Renaissance Reptiles. He was very straightforward and I wish we would have listened to him!

It's kinda similar to the Leopard Gecko market. I have worked my way up to close to the top of the pyramid in that market, though it has taken many years, a crapload of money and a lot of hard work. With the ball pythons though, it is much harder to work your way up unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest in snakes.

It cracks me up when I hear people fuss and moan about someone "ruining the market" by selling their animals for a few hundred dollars cheaper or whatever. Hell, I am happy as can be, not to mention thankful, when I sell a leopard gecko (or a snake for that matter) for $200! People should be ecstatic that they can sell a snake for a few hundred to a couple thousand buck apiece, instead of griping that "so and so" priced his lesser platties at $10,000 instead of $15,000 or whatever (just an example, I do not know nor do I care what lesser platinums sell for).

Just my thoughts on it, you asked
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Hey Kelli,

Still waiting for pics lol...

On your Mojave though. You paid 10,000. If you only breed him to 5 girls and only 3 take and get crappy clutches of say 4 eggs each, but you hit the split (which it usually will avarage out in 5 clutches anyways)and god hates you and you get all males. And you sell them for ONLY $3000 ea you still make more than you could in almost any other investment i can think of.

3 gravid girls x 2 mojave each = 6 mojaves, all males x 3000 = $18,000

Basically

Invest $10,000
Less than 1 yr (or 1 yr)make $18000
There is no other investment market in the world you can safely make that kind of return in less than 2 yrs...

Only way you lose with snakes is if you kill your male =)

And the example i used above is with Bad breeding, Small clutches and Bad luck... imagine id it worked out a little better ... Bigger clutches, More gravid females, or god like you and you get all girls...

No matter what morph you buy at any price if you can breed and hatch eggs you will do better then any other investment out there.

Hope this helps
Jon Dvoretz
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

I had to repost because my grammer was so bad in my last post i couldnt believe it lol...

Oh yeah, breeding the TOP quality of any morph helps A LOT!
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Hello, I would like to give a gigantic shout out to Mrs. Kelli. Finally someone with enough weight behind their rep to say what she did and not get trashed by the masses. I find it a little peculiar that not one of the people who have been posting on this thread mentioned anything about what she said in reference to what all the breeders told her about the Mojave's last year. That they would be $30,000 this year. Good for you Mrs. Kelli, you have done more people a service than a disservice with what you said. To the people who say if you get this number of animals and if you get this much.......if...if...if. Whatever number you think your going to get, cut that in half. Whatever price you think your going to get, cut that in half, bare minimum, maybe more. The reality is, if there really was that kind of production going on we would have 10 times the number of balls morphs we have now. But the proof is in the pudding. Plenty of big breeders have all their hatching records available to the public. I challenge those people(you know who you are) to prove me wrong, and if you do I will come on this site and suck my thumb for all to see. The good news is I agree that it's not a pyramid scheme, but some fantastic marketing by the big guys. No one puts a gun to anyone's head to buy these animals, so if you lose your butt or don't make the kind of money you thought you were going to make, it's not the breeders fault. Take care and stay safe. Ciao. Andrew Potts

Hello,

I'm trying to understand why you would buy into the idea that a snake you bought for 10K was going to have babies worth 30K a year or two later. The market is based on supply and demand, which you must have realized.

I just bought an adult male mojave - and I expect prices to be less than this year's next year when I sell babies. SO WHAT? My first three babies (one clutch) will more than pay for my male. After that, it's profit...

Yes, I love my snakes, but yes, I want to make money. .

Christy

When we purchased our male it was before it was common knowledge that Mojaves were het blue eyed leucistic. So at the time, they were priced at $10,000. Once it was "official" that they were het leucistic, the price was supposed to go up a whole bunch. In fact, if you remember, they WERE advertised at $20,000 for males and $30,000 for females in the middle of the season (after Morph King made the announcement) for a couple months. Obviously they did not sell at those inflated prices, hence the fact that now Mojaves are going for as low as $4500 or thereabouts (I bet you can get them even cheaper).

Actually, I would have rather kept the 3.4 adult Nephrurus amyae I had instead of selling them to come up with the money for one ball python. However, we got "greedy" and bought into the morph. It was stricly an investment for us, which is really out of character for us. Had it not been for the fact that we heard "thru the grapevine" that the Mojave was actually a het leucistic and that they would be selling for triple the amount we paid for one, we NEVER would have done it.

Oh well, the reptile business is always a gamble, no matter what type of herp you invest in. I have no hard feelings towards anyone, except possibly myself, for making such a dumb decision.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I see, that does explain it to some extent. Cheer up, as long as you have normal females you will easily make a good return on your investment . It is unfortunate though, that you sold something you enjoyed and then did not get the return you felt you would. Good luck!

Christy

np
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Yes, of course I realize the market is based on supply and demand. I've been in the herp business for a long time. It's just that, at the time we bought into the Mojave, we listened to what other breeders that had them available told us, instead of listening to ourselves. I fully admit it was a big mistake, but we still love our Mojave and hopefully he will produce some baby Mojaves for us this year. His name is "Oppenheimer" BTW
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

One way to put it is a pyramid without the scheme
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Bobby Pruett
Arboreals Etc...

You either have Vision & drive to be the first,
have the ability to be the cheapest and do volume,
... or Just enjoy the ride as collector/hobbyist who makes a little cash to finance the obsession further.
MHO
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

And I wanted to ride it all night long, too.

Oh, well.

Chris
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mean people suck

There is no easy fix in the reptile game.
The high prices have hurt this industry,not the low ones.
We all have respect for our captives,but some just see it as a way to make money quick.
You CAN earn good money,but be prepared for a bumpy ride.
We all need to evolve with the business.It realy is a numbers game.Once the morphs are at pet shop price then demand will out strip supply.The ones who hang in there and except that certain morphs are only going to be worth $500.00,will be the ones earning good money.
Remember people,'EVERTHING COMES TO HE WHO WAITS'
I say 'bring it on',competition is a wonderful thing,it soughts out the men from the boys(sorry ladies),the real investors from the wannabee's.Patience is the only order of the day.
I for one have been watching the market over the last 5 years. If you had said in 2000 that there will be a snake readily available for $175,000.00 in 2005 i would have said you were insane. Well here we are and it is fact, not fiction.
This fuels people to come into this great industry.Some will make it,many will fail,but hang on in there,because balls have shown the world that snakes are worth more than houses.
Balls have led the way,boas are quickly getting there and more species will follow.
Remember the three 'E's

EXCEPT
EVOLVE
EARN

Any way enough crap from me!!!

I wish you all a good breeding season and may the best man or woman win!!!!!!

I think you mean the one A and two Es...right?

Chris
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mean people suck

I was thinking the same thing!

Very true.
Thanks for the pick up.
Any comment on the post or just the spelling.

"Balls have led the way,boas are quickly getting there and more species will follow. "

That would be cool.

Chris
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mean people suck

The length of this thread is proof that something is amiss. There's only 1 reason balls are popular, and that is people want to make money. Yes, there are a select few who started breeding ball pythons that cash in, and will continue to cash in, and can't see, or don't accept to see, how this isn't going to work out for most individuals. Sooner or later people are going to take a look around and realize, wow, there are LOTS of people trying to do what I'm doing, and there are SO many different morphs, that it's going to be overwhelming. In pyramid terms, we're at the point where there are lots and lots and lots of blocks at the base. It's long past the point of a few rare, prized morphs. (I will also note, there's a difference between rare, ie: breeding diamonds/boelens, and few in number, ie: ball morphs that don't have a large presence in quantity, but will in due time).

It's the basic, is this too good to be true question. Does making solid $$ off selling baby ball pythons, at this moment in time, sounds reasonable, competing with known large breeders and the rest of the masses?? Does it make sense? Not really. And for everyone who says, 'this market is going to continue to grow'...it grows when the masses still have that confidence and general optimism that the money they put into ball pythons will be returned as a nice profit...as soon as a select few say to themselves, this is too big a mountain, there's TOO many people to compete with, it will be contagious. History repeats itself, this isn't the first, and certainly not the last time people try and make money off a phenomenon, whether we're talking reptiles or real estate or gold or beenie babies.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this cycle at all. I'm not ball python market bashing, but I truely feel that I'm just stating what I see, and what others see as well. And this is an open forum, where maybe things like this need to be discussed. People love reptiles, but when the time comes that people are unable, or having a difficult time selling baby snakes that represent an investment of thousands of dollars, it will leave a bad taste, and as a community, we will lose those people to other hobbies.

Pyramid scheme? Not sure, but what's going on here is nothing new when people are looking to make money.

Chris
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mean people suck

the very first sentence, regarding the length of the thread? or the second sentence regarding the money??

It was the second sentence. Ball Pythons are popular snakes because they are:

1. Available in many interesting patterns and colors.
2. Extremely docile.
3. Hardy and undemanding (read: easy to keep).
4. Of an easily managable size.

These four (4) criteria are what make any snake popular -- Ball Pythons, Cornsnakes, etc.

Chris
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mean people suck

Chris - I agree. The variety of colors and morphs is really exciting...there's always something to work with and if I'm looking for something new and cool, the ball python forum is the place I always start and I am always amazed.

I didn't mean to get into the 'it's all about money' conversation based on my post(I probably should have left that line out, it wasn't even the basis of my post), but I do think that when it comes to morphs and paying the prices that are out in the market, that it has a little more to do with the monetary gain, and a little less to do with the excitement of creating new morphs. If you just wanted to play with a myriad of morphs wouldn't you just work with corns? And if it's the morphs, size, temperments are the base of this market, are we all making a million dollars here where we can all pay thousands of dollars to create new morphs with balls just for the fun of it? With all due respect, I think it's a little naive to say your 4 reasons are what's keeping this ball market going bananas. Just do a search on this forum page for 'money', 'investments', 'market', etc.

What do you think Chris? ...Also, I suggest we leave it at your response, this is not the direction this thread was heading I don't think...and I appologize for that. (also, I was also not trying to be mean spirited in any of my posts....Chris, I was not trying to correct you in my last post)

No need to apologize. I don't think you were mean-spirited at all. In fact, I'd say quite the opposite. I believe I am the one who should be apologizing. Your first (read: second) sentence came off a little trollish (in my opinion), so I ignored the rest of your post assuming it was bashing all those who breed. That was lazy of me. I should have read your post in length before making my comment. I apologize.

Chris
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mean people suck