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I came home tonight to find a dead yearling. I have no idea what happened or if I contributed to this somehow. This gal fed on Sunday and has recently shed. All I knew to do was take her out of the enclosure where their is another BRB and check in her mouth for mucous or slime. Obviously I have some major disinfecting to do this evening. I stuck her in the fridge for now and guess I'll do a necropsy with no knowledge besides pictures in a book to go by. Maybe I should take her to work and do it there with better with real instruments and the ability to pull cultures and do something else? All I know is that she appeared okay this weekend and it is not possible that she was keep too dry or hot. I have to admit other than a peek while walking by several times daily I did not physically handle her or lift up the hide to check. There isn't anything I see just by looking with 2 expceptions. One: she doesn't smell at all and has no discharges from anywhere. (I even tried to shake fluid from lungs) and two: she looks slightly lumpy....kinda gravidy. I can post pics!

What should I be doing?

Linda

Only thing I can add is has it been in contact with any other snakes, other than the one it's housed with? You touched on all the typical husbandry issues. Hate to mention this but you did get a new sanake recently, a hog I believe, is it under strict quarantine? With good cleaning between caring for others and it?

Sometimes this just happens, do all the cleaning and quarantine stuff and keep us posted, maybe Jeff has some more ideas.
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.100 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Yes, I bought a Hog and it is in a different room altogether. The Hog is last on the list so she was done last. If I carried something it was to her not from her. The dead snake was in a steralite with a roommate from the same breeder and has been kept together since the were originally shipped together. That entire enclosure is inside a big LL with 2 others brb's that have been together for over a year. I'm considering all possibilities, help me think of more! With the exception of snakes that were shipped together) I quarantine as long as possible, not less than 3 to 4 months.
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When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

Linda,
...It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I would think that taking her to work and getting lab work and cultures on anything that looks the least bit suspcious may be the only way to know what caused the death. I think you are mostly looking in the right area for an infectuous disease. On the other hand. These things just happen sometimes. Perhaps a blood clot or heart defect or maybe something related to digestive or liver or kidney problems triggered by the sunday meal? You have an advantage over the rest of us working for a vet. Most of us do the best we can without veterinary assistance. When we lose a snake we are left with unanswered questions. I lost a gravid BRB a couple months ago. I have not got a clue as to what happened and I would probably be a better breeder if I had the knowledge and could possibly use it to make changes for the better.
Jeff

>>Yes, I bought a Hog and it is in a different room altogether. The Hog is last on the list so she was done last. If I carried something it was to her not from her. The dead snake was in a steralite with a roommate from the same breeder and has been kept together since the were originally shipped together. That entire enclosure is inside a big LL with 2 others brb's that have been together for over a year. I'm considering all possibilities, help me think of more! With the exception of snakes that were shipped together) I quarantine as long as possible, not less than 3 to 4 months.
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>> When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

I have lots of pics, problem is I don't have ANY experience in knowing how to interrpret them. I wanted to take her to work, primarily because it introduces a greater chance of contamination by doing a gross necropsy at home where the other critters live. The only things that are jumping out at me at this point is that there seems to be an almost non-existant amount of fat deposits. The heart looks different than what I'd guess, but don't know if it's normal or not. The lungs don't seem real off to me, but once again, I haven't ever seem a dead snake's lungs. They have a fair amount of what appears to be congestion, but this snake could have been dead as long as 10 hrs. I suppose I'll do a bacterial culture and sensitivity from the tracheal bifracation and scrape out the intestines for some fecal examinations. All I can figure at this point is that a toxic was introduced from a feeder or substrate, or a defect reached a level that the body could no longer accomidate it. Stomach is completely empty, and no stool is present, there are some soft liquid urates forming, but I can't see where they could have cause anything more then discomfort at worst.

I was hoping you could direct me in this.

On top of all this....this little gal came today:

*****I can't seem to get the pics in the right order, please excuse me******

>>I have lots of pics, problem is I don't have ANY experience in knowing how to interrpret them. I wanted to take her to work, primarily because it introduces a greater chance of contamination by doing a gross necropsy at home where the other critters live. The only things that are jumping out at me at this point is that there seems to be an almost non-existant amount of fat deposits. The heart looks different than what I'd guess, but don't know if it's normal or not. The lungs don't seem real off to me, but once again, I haven't ever seem a dead snake's lungs. They have a fair amount of what appears to be congestion, but this snake could have been dead as long as 10 hrs. I suppose I'll do a bacterial culture and sensitivity from the tracheal bifracation and scrape out the intestines for some fecal examinations. All I can figure at this point is that a toxic was introduced from a feeder or substrate, or a defect reached a level that the body could no longer accomidate it. Stomach is completely empty, and no stool is present, there are some soft liquid urates forming, but I can't see where they could have cause anything more then discomfort at worst.
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>>I was hoping you could direct me in this.
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>>On top of all this....this little gal came today:
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>>*****I can't seem to get the pics in the right order, please excuse me******
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When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

Gall Bladder

,

I'll get it done this weekend. I can't even spell.

Goodnight,
Linda
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When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

Linda,
....I have to wonder about that bilous looking staining on the tissue around the gall bladder. You can see it on the muscle wall as well. The other PICs look clean and like the snake may not have been dead too long before you refrigerated it. I believe that bile will begin to "digest" tissue after death and that the staining may just indicate that the bile leaked out of the gall bladder after the bile had partially eaten through the wall of the gall bladder after death. The heart looked sort of normal but maybe engorged with too much blood. It looks so structurally different because it is not the four chambered mammalian heart we are familiar with. I wonder about possible back up of blood in the heart and the fluid in the lungs? Congestive heart failure versus pneumonia versus a constriction or blockage of one of the big blood vessels? Just guessing. No real help here. I think you need an expert to look at the PICs..
....If you ever have a live small amelanistic snake available take a look at it shining a bright light through it's body in the heart area. You can sometimes see the chambers pump and the blood flow in and out as they work. It is very educational.
Jeff

>>Gall Bladder
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...agrees with what you mentioned about the staining from the gall bladder being a probable post-mortem occurance. I will attempt to post a lung pic in a bit. I had 2 Vets (who both admitted they know nothing about snakes) look at the pics and neither saw anything striking. I called the most qualified local Vet for suggestions and he will look at the photos for anything that seems abnormal in his experience. All I did today was send in cultures of the lung and lining of the mid-trachea. I did not get a chance to scrape out intestines and stomach for parasite exams which I don't think will lead to a cause of death but will be educational. I'll have a partial culture report (24 hrs) tomorrow and the 48 on Sunday with the sensitivity completed on Monday. I am interested to see what that will show. Results will be posted here on KS for those interested. Aside from the fact that one of my nicer gals is dead, I found it interesting to see the inner workings. All this is new to me and I am fascinated by this type of stuff. Pictures are cool, but the real deal is just awesome. The digestive system is incredible. So simple, yet so effecient. Thanks for your help.

Lung

np
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.100 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

..not to assume, it just causes more trouble. I didn't take that wrong at all, in fact sometimes I (we) need reminders and checkpoints for re-evaluation. I have been thinking about what you said and can't make a less than far-fetched connection to what I'm doing at this point. I wish it were as easy as I did such and such and this is what happened. Thanks for the input.

Linda,
It sounds like you've already received the best advice money can buy....and it sounds like you were doing the right things anyway. You have good insticts. Anyways, I'm sorry you lost one of your snakes. It doesn't get easier.

Chris O

Ps. If you make any discoveries as to the reason for it's untimely departure I would be interested to know.....
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

...I'll post the culture results early next week if you're interested. I will have to figure out what is normal flora in a up to 10 hrs dead snake. It gives me something to do anyway.

Sorry to hear about your snake. The only time I've ever lost an animal so quickly like this was because of a temperature spike in the house I was living in at the time. I know you've ruled out temperature. The only reason I mention it is because I think the cause of death must be some kind of sudden change in the environment of the snake or within the snake itself. maybe this is obvious but is there anything within the cage that could have fallen on the snake, or that the snake could have fallen off? What position was the animal in when you found it? does it look like it was writhing before death (sorry) as in the case of a blocked airway? I think you said there was another snake in the enclosure. Were there any puncture wounds on the dead animal. This might indicate some kind of struggle between the two. Probably not likely, but maybe a feed response began for some reason. I guess if it were me, I'd look for sudden trauma.

While I look forward to the results of your lab tests, I don't suspect illness. I may be wrong but I just don't think illness would be common in a collection such as yours. Also, If it were an infection of some kind, I would expect a more gradual onset of symptoms. Does anyone out there have experience with illnesses taking the life of an animal so quickly? If so, I'm sure they are rare and should be easy to pinpoint.

Mike

Although I have little to no experience with reptiles yet, I have seen sudden deaths in birds. My family raised and bred cockatiels. A few of these sudden deaths were do to illness, but most of them were trauma related. Birds, and if my reading is correct reptiles are the same way, are very adept at disguising the fact that they are ill until they are practically at deaths door. We had a bird we had just purchased seem healthy for most of it's quarantine period, but it died the very same day it began showing noticeable signs of illness. However, I find illness unlikely in this situation, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence of an advanced infection or disease. I agree that a sudden trauma may be a likely cause of death, but as I have no experience with reptile diseases, I doubt this helps much.
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Dani

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When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

...I agree that the most likely cause is trauma or a sudden, major change in an environmental condition. I could find no signs of trauma and there is no electrical flow to this enclosure at all. I don't have anything plugged in because in stays 74 to 76 in the enclosure. I know some might argue that it's too cold....but I can't beleive that would have caused this. The only possible injury that could have happened was getting it's head or something stuck between the lid and actual container. The body was all contorted when I fould it, just outside the hide next to the water bowl.

,

Interesting. I'm not even going to pretend to be an expert. I agree with your newest post in which you say, basically, that it's just one of those things. The contorted position suggests to me that there was failure of some major organ (no kidding huh?).

I also wanted to mention to you that in Doug Mader's book " Reptile Medicine and surgery" there is an excellet section on necropsy of reptiles. Sorry I didn't mention it earlier but I thought of it only after reading your posts. In this section, he implies that there are many thigns that can cause sudden death in reptiles. One that he mentions is mineralization of the cardiac vessels due to inactivity.

It's a really useful book. Especially if you are involved in animal medicine. Do you have access to a copy?

Mike