Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry for the dramatic header on the thread lol. Anyway my buddy Peter sent me some pics of one of his hatchling Easterns dispatching a Ringneck. I know others here suggested Ringnecks are toxic to Kings and will go for the glottis and suffucate a King but it simply looks like they just taste good instead. This pic was taken 5 days ago and the king has shown no ill effects.

Keith

-----

I knew those "worms" couldn't hurt a KINGsnake.....LOL
I always classified ringnecks with flatheads, blackheads, brownsnakes and all the tantillas.....Never as a kingsnake killer....
Thanks for the pic,
John Lassiter

People these days.

-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

I knew that would bring you out....Is that one of those calkings you couldn't get to eat and let die or take any advice on how to get them to eat?
John

I actually do have a striped cali king that looks just like that, which was a problem feeder a while back. I got her on the right track, I posted a recent pic of her a couple threads below, she's a looker.

That pic was taken by a friend. The cali king was killed by the venom of a Mussurana and then used to feed the ringneck.

But it has been documented that ringneck snake venom(in the sub-species that have venom)affects kingsnakes and will kill them.

We're all friends here.

-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

I know...I know Mike....some ringnecks have toxins in their body that could kill a predator snake.....
I wonder how long that eastern will last in the first post? Maybe the ringneck being eaten is not the ssp. with the toxins...HMMM
5 days is a long time with no ill results.....
John Lassiter

That eastern will be fine. It ate a northern ringneck. I've never heard of anything dying after eating a northern.
-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Ky state herpetologist John MacGregor has documented a black kingsnake from Meade county Ky dieing shortly after ingesting a northern ringneck. I don't know all the hows and whys but its clear to me that feeding Diadophis to kingsnakes is a lot like playing Russian roulette. Apparently often times there are no consequences but on occasion there is. Its not a risk I would be willing to take personally.

Something else on the topic. I readilly feed culls and at times I have even fed fresh DOR's to kings that were reluctant to feed. I have never had to resort to collecting wild snakes to use as feeders though. One thing that has worked for me with hatchling kings that were reluctant to take newborn mice is scenting them with musk from a rat or corn snake. I would think a water or garter snake would work as well. Something to think about if you haven't tried it. Phil

Of a wild Diadophis feeding on a young zonata, in-situ somewhere in the Sierras. I know that there are other folks in this forum that saw those photos, and it was pretty cool.

I have found very large Diadophis punctatus dugesi in close proximaty and the same microhabitat as young greeri, no doubt they are snacking on those kings too, and Regalis is sympatric with both thayeri and alterna. I have no doubt these ringnecks are making a living feeding on other snakes.

When the roles are reversed, this is where it gets interesting?

Forky

There's lots of things like the fresh shed skin of a corn etc. that will work..sometimes. I also use the saliva of a living snake to scent pinks.
:Mark

I used to use saliva of lizards for stubborn hatchling greybands. I would go nose to nose (lizard and pinkie of course) and the lizard would open it's mouth, viola, worked everytime. After a couple of feedings switched right over to unscented. You have to be a little patient though, sometimes the lizard would hang on a little long.

"Fitch (1975) reported predation on the Ringneck Snake in Douglas County by Copperheads, Timber Rattlesnakes, Racers, Milk Snakes, Bullfrogs, and three species of raptorial birds."
Joeseph T. Collins, Third Edition Revised

Toxic - absolutely not.

Kerby...

Kerby, you are bringing up literature that surfaced 3 decades ago. Things change. Fitch did a great job of reporting alot of information on ringneck snakes, but he only studied a couple sub-species and populations. Mainly the ones in Kansas.

Kansas ringnecks are easy to prey for anything. No doubt. Plus the fact that they can be found in the thousands, they are just king food waiting to happen.
-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Three decades ago may seem like a long time to a youngster like you, but not me. I was living in Kansas 30 years ago, you probably weren't even born yet?? Plus the snakes were there for thousands of years before you or me,......SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED???? IN a mere 30 years that makes Fitch's study no longer vailid???, but your observations are any better???

And the higher density (Ringnecks) actually gives you a better sampling for studies. So there are a lot of Ringnecks in Kansas...they still aren't toxic to other snakes AND they still are a food source. It is irrelevant that a study was done 30 years ago. The findings are still the same.

"Fitch (1975, 1982) considered this specimen to be the most abundant vertebrate on his upland study area in Douglas County and obtained estimates of up to 730 Ringneck Snakes per acre."

Kerby...

just because these snakes' cohabitance with one another is nothing new,our understanding of it all IS still relatively new,very much so....hey just consider how dramatically snake bite first aid has changed in just the past 30 or so years....i.e. new dicoveries are constantly(thankfully) being made in herpetology......and that being said,30 years is barely a drop in the bucket,when you look at the 'big picture'

I also had always heard that if fed to another snake it would be fatal to what ever you fed it to.
-----
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=173260&ck=

I have friends that feed FL corals only southern ringnecks, because the corals will only take them.

I have had friends feed Mississippi and Prairie Ringnecks to TX coral snakes, only to have the coral puke up the ringneck and die a short time later.

Northern ringneck snakes really have no affect on anything that eats them.
-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

I don't know if they are toxic,but I fed one to a adult speckled king years ago.It ate it with no problem but promptly regurged it about 10 minutes later and the ringneck was still alive and looked like nothing had happened to it except for being a little slimy from being regurged.

If the Ringneck was already dead and the snake regurged it then okay, but since the Ringneck was alive when swallowed and was then regurged has NO direct correlation (positive or negative) on the fact/or lack of that it is because Ringnecks are toxic.

Also taken from Joseph T. Collins, Amphibians and Reptiles in Kansas,........."This behavior is defensive and when accompanied by a cloacal discharge, may discourage predators,....."

Not necessarily toxic in the least.

Kerby...

just FTR i have fed a southern ringneck to a desert king l.g.splendida 2days later the king regurged the ringneck and subsequently died in the next couple of hours writhing and twisting appeared to be poison/envenomation of some type im not sure but i do know the king was very healthy w/no probs prior to this, susequenty i fed a tx coral to a splendida w/no ill effects whatsoever and the splendida was bitten and chewed on several times by the coral during this??? and no problems,,, this was 20years ago and my fascination with cannibilism has since subsided and i kinda will just continue to beleive that ringnecks are indeed toxic to kings,but i suppose there are factors to factor in such as ssp of kings and ssp of ringnecks id just rather not choose ringnecks as feeders when there are so many others that are safe,,,,,thems my pennies,,,also glad to here the easterns have no probs from it,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

I do know this....about 10 years ago I fed a ringneck to a coral the next morning it had regurged it and was dead by the evening.Thats when I was told that ringneck had toxins.Since then I have always believed that they do contain some type of toxins.This has been a great and interesting thread.
Toby
-----
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=173260&ck=

I"M GONNA FEED A RINGNECK TO A MEDIUM SIZED INDIGO then PIT IT AGAINST A VERY LARGE KINGSNAKE!!!
Todd Hughes

but potential risks are a pretty convincing reason NOT to,imo.....

About time I weighed in here...this should not be anthropomorph'd into being "about battles"...its about what might be happening in nature.

Its about time somebody posted a jpg, 1st Ive seen...

Some good posts & some nutty ones below....the idea of ringnecks being toxic has been kicking around since Kaufield (pg 224 re Az-corals dying after eating ringnecks). Rossi & Rossi give a good acct of a southern ringneck actually killing a longnosed snake w. an esophogeal bite that tried to swallow it..so it does seem to happen.

The question remains tho, if ringneck venom is used defensively & is the threat backing up their elaborate ventral display...which predators does it disuade?
Certainly they must be color sensitive, so skunks & opossums are not likely. The predator must learn, not die for avoidance & thus selection to take effect. Birds/whipsnakes/& kingsnakes may be??? Thus these experiments are good. I hope others will try this w/ the red-tail coiling ringnecks as the northern dont display. What would be most insightful.....if a getulus will continue to eat ringnecks after the first one or 2. I know a fellow in Fl who regularly feeds them to his Micrurus corale w/o ill effect.

The king in the jpg Mike posted was killed by the venom of another rear fanged snake, & this is insightful; here is a snake that could take a full hit from a mojave.... & it succumbs to the elapid like venom of an opisthoglyph...Interestingly... this other snake's venom is, by my preliminary estimates...48x less virulent on serpents than is the venom of regalis ....thus I am not ready to disregard the claims of those several over the years that have stated they have had getulus succumb to ringneck envenomation. I just dont understand why the kings would attempt to eat them in the first place if this were a likely outcome???? Good biology should always raise better questions than it answers!

Beers / RxR