Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all. A local petshop handed me a hatchling RES today..A major no no in my parts.. And me being a big softy took it in..(Only other option was to call Fish & Game..which is a death sentence) As young as it is, it is most likely a wild (non-native) hatched baby. For legal reasons, the turtle can not be taken to vet for check up..

Looks to be this years hatchling, not much bigger than my boxie
hatchling.. Half dollar size... I have several questions about care at moment..Last time I had a pond turtle, it was in CA and I had a POND.. Never kept one in an apartment before...And not too sure I can..But willing to try.

What type setup should I give for hatchling?? How deep should water be? What temp should it be kept at? Other then pellets and small insects, what should I feed it to keep it healthy?? How soon do I need a large tank setup for it?? Years, months???

I am haunting the turtle websites tonight for care info..I do
have few box turtles and have good turtle knowledge, so not too much of a newby.. I understand lighting and health care, just not the basic slider needs.

Any advice?? Tips?? Thoughts??

thanks in advance,

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

Hi and first off I would like to say your a good person. Although some fish and game wildlife ppl throw it in the pond, put a tracker on it and if it dies then they don't care. The minimum you can have right now is a 10 gallon becasue it will be hard to get everything it needs in the tank. A 20 gallon would last it a long time but it will need when adult probably a 30 or 40 gallon. But that would most likely be 4 to 5 years. Do you know if its a male or female? Females get 6 to 11 inches from the top of the top shell( carapace I think )to the bottom of the top shell. They are extremely messy animals. You will need twice the size filter of how ever many gallons tank you have(i.e. 20 gallon= 40 gallon filter).But with a good filter you might be able to get away with 25% changes every month but you would need a really good filter. I don't like submersable filters because they take up room and for a 10 gallon you would need a big 20 gallon submersable filter, which means hardly any swimming room. So a canister filter, such as the Turtle Canister Filter 501, would do for a while. It's for up to 30 gallons, but since it is specially made for turles I don't know if you could actually have that one until your turtle needs a 30 gallon or if you would need a 60 gallon filter. They also have a specially made submersable filter made by the same ppl.You should have an aquarium temperature strip. Or some ppl think its best to have the expensive one where you put a little probe looking thing in the water and it tells you electronically. It depends on how much money you have. The temp should be maintained at 75-85 degrees. So a water heater will work, make sure its for turles because with the others that hang on the side the water level has to be at the top of the heater. I have no problem with that, but make sure you still have one just in case. The water depth should be at least 1.5 to 2 times your turtles total lenght. DO NOT FILL TANK TO TOP. It should be halfway filled or maybe a little more. I think you mentioned you knew about basking? Just make sure it can COMPLETELY come out of the water. You can also have a UVB night time light if you want it to be more natural or you want to watch it at night. You should probably have 75 watt for a day time UVB. As for food, since its still young it is more carnivorous, so feeder fish, earthworms, and crickets. Do not get the crickets or earthworms from your backyard, get them at a petstore or somewhere that you are confident there is no bacteria or pesticides. The plant matter should be romaine lettuce( not iceburg, just a waste of stomach space ) finely chopped carrots and carrot tops, apples, dandelion greens, and fruit. To keep its beak sharp, let it gnaw on peices of cantoloupe with the( well washed off ) rine still attached. They should also have commercial pellet food, reptomin I heard don't work well, but Zoomeds Hatchling Aquatic Turtle Food micro sized pellets work. Others work well too, just make sure they have vitamin D3 and calcium in them; and break up the big pellets. Overall the diet should be 25% pellets, 25% vegatable matter, 50% animal matter. Slowly increasing vegatable matter as it grows until it is about 4 inches so eventually 50% vegatable matter, and 25% animal. Male sure you take out any uneaten food out after an hour. Do not use frozen as frozen fish are low in Thiamin and this can cause a deficiency. If you work at the petstore you might be lucky and get a discount on some of these things. The turtle 501 filter is usually $50.00 . Sorry it was so long, I'm sure someone else might be able to sum it up for you if you had a headache after reading all this. Hope this helped, Bye.

everyones opinion is different so i will tell you mine. i believe that some pellet diets are complete(no need for worms and supplements) i like hagen max turtle gammarus pellets, they are small enough for hatchlings to eat and have vit d3 and calcium. the night lights are infrared, not uv. adult res need vegetable matter, but i wouldnt worry about it until hes about 4". i dont like to use live foods for 2 reasons. too much protein causes pyramiding of the shell. live foods also can bring in viruses, bacteria, fungi, basically a lot of disease. dont use reptomin as it does not contain vit d3. water level is up to you, i have had hatchling in 30 breeder do fine with the water all the way to the top. when the water is this high they may be able to get out so i put a critter keeper without the top on it with paper towels in the bottom to pad their fall right next to their basking area to catch them when they do try to get out. i have never had trouble with baby turtles being able to swim in deep water, they are made for it. i dont use heaters in the water. room temp water is fine with a warm basking area. i have had fish bite through the cord on heaters and am sure a turtle could do it. he should be about 4" in a year and a full grown female needs something about the size of a 75. i like whispers that hang on the outside of the tank. they dont take up tank space, are easy to clean, do a good jbb cleaning the tank, and are relatively cheap. on 30 gallons i would use 2 whisper 60s, a single whisper 60 can handle up 30 gallon, 60 if there is another filter, they used to say this on their box btu stopped for some reason. i keep my water up high enough for this type of filter to work and you should be able to also.

Thanks for the reply.. I checked out my state's F&G page, and according to law, I am supposed to turn over the turtle for "Humane Disposal".. If there is such a thing.. It is definately on the hit list for my state(oregon)..

But they would need a search warrant to find him... and They aint going to.... I will drive him up north if I have to..Legal there..

I will be fixing the babies home tonight... And Since I have MANY MANY other reptiles, I already have most of what I need...Althought I could use more space...

Thanks again..

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

Yes everyones opinion is different but one thing I have to say isn't right but not wrong. If the water level is filled to the top as you stated they can get out and you told her how to fix that. However everyone I know of says it should not be filled to the top. I would imagine it would be a little harder to get a basking ramp up there and plus if you were to use a hood with the dual lightbulb your turtles would fry and you would be arrested for animal cruelty and never seen again. When I say top I mean about an inch from the little black plastic part. One other thing though I am sure you are wrong about is her baby turtle will not grow to be full size in a year. It would take at least 3 years, not 12 months.

I don't know what you are refering to, but 4" is a far cry from full grown. A male slider can get up to 10" and a female up to 12", but not all will get that big. 4" in a year is not unreasonable. Think about it, the longer you are small the more suseptiable you are to predatition. There is rapid growth the first year and then it slows way down. My RES grew 4" in 9 mths, but since that time growth has almost nominal. Did I overfeed him, NO, it is just natures way of giving them as much of a chance as possible. And before anybody jumps in, I have taken him to an experienced, I repeat experienced herp vet. He is not over weight, he recieved a clean bill of health. I believe the remark was that he was doing extremely well.

On a side note, I have also heard that growth can also be temperature related. If that is the case, a RES kept in FL might grow at a faster rate than one kept in vermont. I suspect it would have something to do with hibernation, as growth slows down during that time.

Also, an adult RES needs to be housed in nothing smaller than a 55 gal long. In my opinion that would even be pushing it, it only leaves about 3" for him to turn around. He needs to be able to turn around without having to tuck his head back into his shell. These are active turtles, so they need room to really move around.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

im not sure how you setup your tanks, i use open tops and i use a turtle dock. this works fine with the tank full. for heat i use a clamp lamp clamped to the edge of the tank pointing down at the turtle dock. it doesnt overheat them. the only place they can getout of the tank is at the turtle dock, which is where they would be caught by the critter keeper and put back in the tank in a few hours. they usually get out a couple times and then realize they dont get anywhere and havent gotten out since. and like florida hogs said, i said 4", not full grown. they should be 4" in a year and wont be full grown for years.

Yeah I guess I wasn't being clear enough and using my own words so you misunderstood. Yes I know that 4 inchs is not full grown and I don't think 4 inches is full grown for any turtle. Although I have never heard of them getting 12 inches I know they get big. I have had my for about a year and they haven't grown that much. One website I know of says that they will get mature when they are 4 inches which is where I also think I got mixed up in. Is there maybe something wrong with myne? I know they have enough room to grow. I haven't found a supplement in any petstore that won't wash off in the water. I tried one and as soon as it touched the water it washed off. I am going to get the turtle sulfa dip though.

why are you getting sulfa dip? mature just means they are ready to breed, not necessaruly that they are big enough, just means they could. i have only seen one or two that big, besides in a pond. how big is yours? how big was it when you got it?

4" in one year is too fast Mine grew
about an inch per year. Mine are 6 years old and 6-7"

I want someone to show me proof of a RES in the wild
that is 1 year old and already 4".

Linda

there is no such thing as too fast as long as ther are getting enough calcium and vit D3 and uv light to use both. most likely the ones in the wild that end up being huge very successful breeders were 4" in a year. they all grow at differing rates so just because yours didnt grow that fast doesnt mean no ones can. im assuming you had a good setup, but even then individuals may not grow as fast as others.

I'm sorry, but the fact that they grow slowly in the wild
and have a long life span tells me that slow growth is necessary
for LONG TERM health and wellbeing. I just asked for someone
to show me a 1 year old RES in the wild that was 4" I am sorry
that you were offended!

What are you basing your statements on? How long have you had your turtles? How old are they? You posted that
they should be 4" at one year old. Over the past years research
has always stated that turtles are better off growing slowly.

I am confident in the research I have done. I try to keep
my turtles as natural as possible. It seems that you are not
here to learn but to teach....

Linda

how would you like me to prove a 4" one year wild turtle, you cant tell by looking at them how old they are. even counting the rings on their scutes tells you how many times they have shed those scutes, not how many years they have been aroud. florida hogs had a good point, the longer they are small the more likely they are to get eaten. so the faster you grow to a decent size, the better off you will be. how many small turtles do you see in the wild compared to the number of larger ones? very few most likely which means they dont stay small very long. they probably do hide a little bit more, but they still have to come out and bask, so you would still see them.

hatchlings is because they grow quickly in the wild to keep
from getting eaten?

I am not even going to reply. This is the most ridiculous
explanation I have ever heard in my years on this forum.
Some people will say anything to justify their comments

Bye

I am not that stupid I know what mature means. I will admit I don't know everything but I know what that means. I do have a proper setup. It was maybe less than an inch when I got it, and its now maybe and inch and a quarter. I got it last year. Did someone say you can tell how mant times they have shed? One of my turtles bottom shell has like 50 rings on it and the other it hardly has any.

it was in regards to the post above mine.

Sorry
Linda

i mentioned the rings because i have heard people say thats how you can tell the age of a turtle, ive evn seen it on tv shows. your point is a reason why it isnt true. thats what i was saying, that it wasnt true. if i am wrong by agreeing with floridahogs about them growing fast could you please tell me why? i am stating what i beleive to be true, and even if i ahvent shown it, i am open to opposition especially if it teaches me something. it doesnt make sense to me for something to grow just as slow in its first year of life as its later years. most animals grow the fastest at this point in their lives. if you believe i am wrong pleasde tell me why and i may see why i am wrong.

I'm not saying they don't grow the most during there first year. Because they do, but not that fast. Thats like .25 inches a month. It may seem reasonable, but one other thing is if it is captive, then it has no predators, so it does not need to grow fast.

the response i think you were responding to was to linda G. even if there arent predators in captivity, they genetically grow fast because of it and therefore arent going to start to grow slow because of environmental effects. that would be evolution which cant take place in an individual.

MOST animals do not have the lifespan of turtles. That
was a very important point. You are correct in that most
warm-blooded animals grow the fastest as babies BUT compare
their lifespans to those of turtles. Do you know what the
lifespan of an RES is versus a dog or cat?

I believe that what you need to do is alot of research
on these guys. Read everything you can on the internet
and buy every reputable book you can get your hands on.
Then come back and let me know what you think.

My other point is that I try to keep my turtles as natural
as possible. You can keep your turtles anyway you want to
but don't come here and expect others not to disagree with
you. I do know quite a bit about these guys. I have done
rehab as well as raise my own. Below is a picture of an
iguana that I rehabbed that had MBD. He is almost 4 foot long
now at 2 years of age. Yes, he grew quickly but his lifespan
is only about 1/2 of a turtles

2 excerpts concerning Crocodilians (which live longer than RES)

"The growth rates of these reptiles will vary according to the conditions under which they are raised. It has been shown that optimum growth is achieved if the animal can reach a warm temperature (~89F) and is provided with a steady, adequate food supply. In general, expect about one foot per year of growth for juveniles under ideal conditions. Growth rates will slow as the animal gets older."

"The growth rate of alligators varies with food availability and temperature. At the northern limits of its range, or when food is scarce, alligators grow slowly. In Louisiana, where food is abundant, young alligators can grow about one foot (30 centimeters) per year with the greatest growth in the first year"

Also a ink to a growth study done on Geckos (Yes I know they do not live as long)

http://www.ivb.cz/folia/52/3/317-322.pdf

The point is, that there are many determining factors to the growth rate in reptiles. Do your turtles hibernate? Mine don't, thus a higher growth rate. Is your water temp lower than mine, or does it fluctuate? A high fat content in food can also affect growth rate. To state that 1" per year is the growth rate period is a little simplistic. I too have done my research. I prefer to look at scientific papers instead of all the "pet" websites. 20 years ago that same type information told you to raise RES in bowls !! LOL Reptiles are quite unlike dogs and cats in that there are many environmental variables that can contribute to growth rates. It is simply impossible to make one blanket statement on growth. Granted, there are many people who do overfeed these guys, but not all high rates of growth are due to overfeeding. Sorry to go on and on, but you stated that you try to keep your RES in a natural environment. Natural to what state?? Natural to Florida where they do not have to hibernate?? Or natural to Northern Mississippi where they do?? I keep my RES in an optimal growth environment. There in might be the difference in the growth rates of our RES

Thanks
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

floridahogs, linda g is posting at me, so dont be offended by her. linda g, what life span are you attributing to water turtles. remember that it is much less than that of a tortoise. water turtles live about 15-20 years in good conditions. 30 years is possible but far from the norm. also, these are captive ages, in the wild they would not live that long due to disease and predation. i ahve researched on the internet. ihave about a half a dozen good books on turtles and today i actually talked to a reptile expert particularly on this topic. he agrees with me completely and if you do not understand this i cant help you. how do you explain the lack of small turtles in the wild? how do you argue against the fact that it is a good thing for them to grow fast. if they grow this fast nature is letting them. and nature wouldnt allow a turtle to grow too fast. floridahogs gave examples proving that even reptiles grow nice and fast, as they need to, when they are young.

to agree with you about the growth rate size. I have been raising RES for several years. I have had 4 hatchlings each growing about and inch per year. I also have an example of a wild turtle doing the same although it is a snapper. He lives in the pond in our front yard. He hatched about 5 years ago and is now about 6 inches long, growing steadily over those 5 years. THere was no growth spurt in the first year. Good points and well presented!

I am no expert on turtles at ALL!! i just got my first red eared slider two days ago ( someone left it in the parking lot!)

but.. just from info i've read and im looking into vet school and have taken a few bio classes....

i think it is safe to say that ALL animals including turtles grow the fastest in their first years. Becuase of survival and enviromental conditions...

Of course they do. All animals grow the most in their early years. But I have never heard of a captive RES growing 4 inches in just one year. Even that snapping turtle in our pond didnt do that and he is a wild turtle. 4 inchest in one year seems way too fast.

your state it is NOT illegal to own turtles under 4". It is
only illegal to SELL them.

You can take the baby to the vet if need be. I would try to
get a stool sample because if it is wildcaught it likely will
have parasites.

Make sure any vet has a good deal of knowledge of reptiles.

Hope this helps.

Sadly, It is illegal in Oregon.. I have been to website, and talked to F&G person. The red ear slider is a major threat to the western pond turtle's habitat.. And is on the Prohibited list..($500 fine). This law was passed in 2000 so the grandfather law does not apply to this hatching. AND there are SEVERAL vets that I know that would confiscate the turtle if I took it in. I am going to check into getting a rescue/rehab permit.. Since I rehab many other herps, I might just be able to get permit to keep the turtle.

I have located a great turtle vet in Washington state.. I will be taking it for a trip in the near future.. And a vet is definately in order..since it was a wild caught hatchling.

I really do like this little guy and pretty sure I can give it a proper home..

Thanks,

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

wow.. this turned into a different subject rather quickly... at any rate.. sallie, did you get all the info you needed to take care of him? and do you have any questions? this page tells you quite a bit ... http://www.resoasis.com/care.htm

IMO the main things you need to be concerned with are lighting, temp and feeding... the things go hand in hand..

i keep the temperature on my babies around 78 with a shatterproof heater made by all glass aquatics (i think).. you can get these at petco... lighting is the same as with other turtles or tortioses... just make sure you have a thermometer on the basking site to make sure it doesnt get to hot.. high 80's to low 90's should be fine..

as far as feeding.. everyone says something different.. i rarely feed mine live when they are young.. i dont want to risk parasites etc.. the only live they get is ghost shrimp on occasion.. i do give them a variety of pelleted food.. i also feed them frozen krill and bloodworms as a treat.. i like the jurassipet pellets and nutrifin gammarus pellets... they also like anacharis/ellodia.. its a live plant you can buy at most petstores.. they eat it and hide in it... whatever you do feed, just make sure you take any excess out after it is done eating...

the tank size can be as small as a ten gallon but i prefer to give them more room.. also, you wont have to buy another one as quickly... in my experience.. they grow about an inch a year.. sometimes more... im not even going to get involved with that argument/discussion... i like a 20 or 30 long for one or two babies... that gives them a lot of room to swim and not as much depth... mine are filled up a little over halfway, with a turtle dock to bask on...

good luck and let us know if you have any more questions...
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my pets: clown treefrogs, reed frogs, big eyed treefrogs, tiger leg monkey frogs, gray treefrogs, milk frogs, cuban treefrogs, whites tree frog, green treefrogs, squirrel treefrogs, blue webbed gliding treefrog, chameleon treefrogs?, dusky salamanders, tiger salamander, veiled chameleon, box turtles, mud turtle, map turtle, yellowbelly slider, florida softshell, two saltwater tanks, four cats, two chinchillas, and a boyfriend.

Thanks for reply.. Man, I go offline for ONE week and all heck breaks loose on this board.. Didnt think my simple question would cause a war...go figure..

Not only have I been to website, I joined the yahoo group of same name.. I have gotten LOTS of information..

Hatchling is doing great. Has been dubbed, OUTLAW since it is on the illegal list. It measures just under 2 inches, so I have a little time before I need a big tank. I have SEVERAL other reptiles and amphibians(including other turtles), so have most of everything I need for it (except a large tank).. Feeding, heat, uv, No problem.

QUESTION: Some suggest I find another hatchling for it..to give company. Is this really necessary?? It would be VERY difficult to find hatchling of same species in my state. The only other option is the yellow sliders...But I prefer the Asian boxies(C. Ambio) to them.. Would mixing species be horrible...if they have same requirements??

thanks again,

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

considering that they are not capable of emotions, loneliness won't be a problem. the only thing it may help is to keep it used to other water turtles, otherwise if you tried to introduce him to other turtles in the future it may get territorial. but if he always hes a turtle in with him it greatly reduces the risk of this happening. so it wouldnt help loneliness, just prevent territorial behavior and keep him used to turtles.

You keep saying he is wild caught, but that may not necessarily be the case. Where I am these things are sold quite often in pet stores as hatchlings. (not quite sure how they get past the 4" law though). It could be possible that someone traveled from a location where they are legal. Have you asked the pet store where they got the little guy from?

As to getting another RES....they can be extremely aggressive when they reach sexual maturity. In your situatuion, I would not risk the second turtle being a male. Though they may be fine at first, or even possibly later, there is always the risk of ending up with 2 aggressive males and having to keep them in seperate tanks. Since they are illegal in your area, it would be harder to find a new home if it came to that point. If the other was a female, are you prepared to deal with eggs? Being tender hearted, could you dispose of eggs? If not, could you find new homes for babies? Just some things to think about, ultimately the decision is yours. There is neither a right or wrong, you just have circumstances that make it a little more difficult. I myself have 2 RES, luckily I ended up with a male and female. (Getting the 2nd was not intentional, I was also to tenderhearted to say no when offered the 2nd.) Hope all goes well, Outlaw is luckly to be given a chance.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

The hatchling in question was picked up by lady from the local pond where they have been trapping for them.. She then brought it to local petshop which very quickly called me to get rid of it..Fish and game would shut them down if found with it..

As for killing eggs.. There is no way I would ever breed this species.. Yes, I could easily kill the eggs..AND I can find homes for hatchlings in state up north of me(have had offers for this one if need be)..

If I keep this, which I probably will, I would like a second turtle there, but will look at other compatable species..not same...or maybe just big fish..whatever is easiest.

thanks again,

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?