Reptile & Amphibian Forums

in the wild a monitor would eat insects smaller lizards and frogs, and just about anytihng else edible that came within reach, soo is it cool to feed small toads you might find in your back yard and smaller lizards like fence lizards and anoles and stuff like that???
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1 black roughneck
these's lamps make my room hot!!!!!!!!!

most, if not all, toads are toxic. they will only hurt your monitor. the feeder lizards that you see are usually riddled with parasites and offer little nutritious value because they themselves being freshly imported are not healthy. that said when my roughneck was adapting to his captive diet i fed him a couple lizards that i caught outside and it helped him adjust since it is more like his wild diet. also mine seems to enjoy mealworms and superworms. i also put some in his cage and allow them to burry themselves, then when he is digging around and he finds them he gets a little treat and (i hope) it breings a little of his old life into his new one.
-jake

hhmmm i see, well that sound slike a good idea with the mealworms and letting them burry themselves, oh i got one more question since you have a roughneck , i see mine digging all the time and thrashing is dirt around i only have like 5 inches of dirt in there, should i provide more for a burrow???? i wasnt shure if they do burrow
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1 black roughneck
these's lamps make my room hot!!!!!!!!!

i havent had mine too much longer than you, since he is in my timor's old cage he also does not have as much dirt as he should, but that will be remedied soon in his new cage i will leave 2ft of dirt for him to dig in. i think if allowed to they will dig burrows. also make sure you give him room (and stuff)to climb, i will be attaching corkbark to the sides of his cage so he can even climb the walls. mine also seems to enjoy swiming so i am gonna give him as big a water section as i can and take him out to visit the creek/beach in warmer months.
also, i have been working on the waterland tub cage for a while now. i think i've got it. i will post em later.
-jake

yea i have noticed that mine loves water i put him in the bath the other day and he swam and swam and then he just chilled underwater for like 20 min. i was amazed i didnt think he could hold his breath that long, i do think i need to build a bigger cage and i want to make it half water thats a foot or soo deep , with a drain bulkhead and an automated misting system , do you know of a good place to buy cork bark cheap??? jc cork products is alright oh i had another idea for somethng to put on the walls you can get woven bamboo shades at home depot there in the blinds section and i think that they might work well too climb on unless you want the natural look of cork bark
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1 black roughneck
these's lamps make my room hot!!!!!!!!!

V. rudicollis are native where I live and I have yet to come across a Varanus species here that does not devour frogs. All of the native species that I keep are fed farm raised frogs (Rana sp.) as a primary food source (they are raised for human consumption), with insects, rodents and fish as a secondary depending on the species. Toads are a big problem: all species of true toads, Bufo sp., are poisonous, some more than others.

Lizards are also eagerly eaten. Yes, there is the possibility of parasites, but mine have been fed lizards from time to time. Parasites can come from many food sources, such as rodents and feeder fish, especially if the food is not human quality. Mine are crazy about eating Calotes sp., but I am not crazy about feeding to them, those feedings were mistakes thinking they were to big to eat.

Varied diets are good, they offer a variety of nutrients that a single food source diet does not provide. Yes, single source diets with supplements are good, but varied diets with supplements are even better.

Book you read?
I ask because in captivity the most sucess with all species of monitor comes from medium and large sized monitors eating a rodent based diet, and odatria eating crickets. Of course if you would like to try to convince Dragoons Rudis otherwise, Im sure they wont believe you. The biggest variation Ive seen sucess with was a combination or rodents, common feeder insects, and in some species with chicken and quail peeps, but again the rodents made the majority of the diet. Remember in the wild they eat what is most available that makes the biggest return for the smallest effort, thats survival not whats best.

Hi Mike and Shawn,

What Mike says of V. rudicollis and other native Varanus there (i.e. V. bengalensis) is correct and appropriate for all Varanus species = a varied diet. A varied diet offers more minerals and proteins richer in some materials (calcium, phosphates, salt, etc.) than in others....V. rudicollis eat decapods (crabs), fish, and frogs (Rana sp.) = all this is within a paper in forth-coming publication. When an animal intakes sufficient Kcal (calories), metabolic functions in conjunction with proper temps and humidity kick into gear, and the animal is considered healthy. Poor health is when these factors do not work in sinc for the animal, when parasites, disease inundate the animal and may cause its demise.

Yes, Dragoon has had good success with her V. rudicollis - as a matter of fact, her animals' breeding are the best reported to me -

There is a middle ground here that people should move too - not a polarized one as this Country is currently in - vary the diet, enrich their diet with more natural - based food! A captive animal can only eat what you feed it - offer it variety, and for the experienced or even lay-keeper, one can easily note what makes the Varanus excited in its feeding venues... and yes, I too have noticed how crazy they get when Calotes is offered as a food source - like hookers at Mardi-gras!

cheers,
markb

The best diets you can offer containing all needed nutrients and what is preferred by the lizards choice if given the option of several food sources all sitting there waiting seems to be rodents, birds, and some insects (roaches, superworms, crickets, night crawlers even), but some other food sources such as crayfish, shrimp, crab, etc are eaten sometimes, also they can and will eat another reptile or ambhibians but these food sources are widely known for polutants, being riddled with parasites, and coming from wild caught supplies making them harder to obtain.
The medium and large sized species Ive worked with have preferred rodents and birds over any other food source by far. Of course if they are hungry enough they will eat whatever you offer them, thats easy to find out.
Im not saying to only feed rodents, but as you said to me before offer them several choices and see what they want, my albigs have almost always preferred either rodents or birds over any other foods. My boscs have always preferred rodents and some insects with birds after they get much much bigger. My timor which was sold to someone (not sure how hes doing now) was over 7 years old maybe 8-9, he preferred rodents and quail followed by crickets. The niles I had as well ornatus preferred rodents and some insects. I could go on about others Ive had, have now, and in very good friends collections.
I belive some variation is good, but varying a diet must be to give something useful, and not to feed something just because a wild member of that species eats it. After all we do have captive animals, not wild animals. Also consider that from my experience what wild animals here my monitors have shown interest in are rabbits mice, slugs, earthworms, and birds, what they show no interest in or lack of is squirrels, and many insect species, fish (wild or in ponds). They have shown occasional interest in was wild snakes.

SHvar just wondering have your albigs ever needed to be coaxed to eat rodents? Reason I ask is my female has been in captivity approx. 3 months now and she still needs coaxing to eat rodents from time to time (unless she is very hungry). She lives for fowl, eggs, hissing cockroaches, and goes googoo for snakes. We use rodents as the staple now but some times you got to do the dancing rodent routine.

Then go for snakes, fowls and beetles etc. then - why try to change her behavior when it is ours that should acustom ourselves with them, not visa versa....there is a 'reason' they go for these prey items other than "because they eat them in the wild" philosophy...
Good Luck,
mbayless

I belive some variation is good, but varying a diet must be to give something useful, and not to feed something just because a wild member of that species eats it.

- ah Shawn - when we feed our animals in captivity, I was never aware that we were just "feeding something because a wild member eats it" - I thought we were attempting to give it a varied GOOD diet?? Certain food groups have varying amounts of protein, fats, and minerals - a mouse is more like a fatsicle than a protein bar. And this does not apply to all monitors either - some are generalists, but others are specialists, or prefer a specialist-type diet.... my V. albiugularis did not particularly like or even ate rodents when I offered them whole shrimps, fish, snails (!), and DOR snakes....what does that tell you? It told me my V. albigularis were not rodent eaters, and as always, learning from the monitors (which cannot whisper to you what they need/want as some might imply that they do - but do hiss!), this is what they taught me - to each their own shawn. I feel feeding ALL monitors rodents, canned monitor food, crickets only is substandard and more of a convenience to the keeper rather to the specific needs of the kept.

After all we do have captive animals, not wild animals. Also consider that from my experience what wild animals here my monitors have shown interest in are rabbits mice, slugs, earthworms, and birds,

- have you considered that when V. albigularis are given inappropriate diets, they might 'crave' certain food prey items - just as we do??? The monitor will always know what it prefer before we do, so to try breach this gap, offer them several types of foods and see what they go for - they may eat everything, but the 'order' in which they eat it teaches (me) something....

what they show no interest in or lack of is squirrels, and many insect species, fish (wild or in ponds). They have shown occasional interest in was wild snakes.

- like people, some Varanus prefer certain foods/prey items: ie. V. salvator local specific/dietary foods (Rawlinson, 1988; Ledeger, 1939). I have seen my own V. albigularis feed on squirrels, but refused rabbit outright - and have reports of them feeding on squirrels in Central Africa. I have thrown DOR snakes into their cages and they gobbled them up!! - and there is a plethora of material indicative that snakes make up a good part of their dietary intake certain months of the year.

So I disagree with you here - but between us it is just a 'discussion' and not an argument...

Cheers Shawn,
markb

Of them see which they like. Thats what I tried, also the enthusiasm which they go after birds and rodents as well a few other foods shows me that they like them.
Almost every medium to large monitor Ive seen enjoys rodents and birds more than any other food source, sometimes you have to be careful feeding them, you can get hurt when they really like something. Now these examples are and were long time captives, CBB, etc Ive seen some WC monitors show more interest in other food sources at first but that changes after they get used to a readily supplied rodent or bird diet.
As Frank said to me already about how much I offer my monitors, Im not the starving type, my monitors are well fed so they show more interest in what they like not just any food source I offer. I like varying their diet some but I have had monitors that ate rodents their entire life and did great, some that I tried an insect diet (supplemented of course), they grew very slowly (aside from ackies), after switching them to rodents their appetite went through the roof and their growth was great.
About mice being fatcicles, mice on average do have a higher fat content than a chicken peep by mass and weight, but rats have the lowest fat content by far from the 3, peeps the highest moisture content. Calcium per animal varies such a tiny amount by mass and weight from one to the other with rats being the highest barely. As far as many nutrients that are found in one source or another that may or may not be needed or help more , peeps and other birds offer some amino acids not found in rodents in as high levels.
Unless someone was supplying me with CBB rodent fed snakes as a food supply on occasion I wouldnt feed them to my monitors.
I agree, offer them choices, see what they prefer, then figure out why they prefer or want that food source, other problems may be discovered and fixed by doing this. I like discussions, not arguements.

I rarely give snakes f/t of course but my female goes crazy for them to the point she is dangerous. I just hope as time goes on she leans more to the rodents (I still plan on feeding fowl and offer other things but less then I do now). I like her waste better when she has been eating rodents then the runny messes fowl causes.

To all the respondents: I did not desire to hit a wrong nerve, but I guess that is what I did. Yes, rodent only diets have had great success with many Varanus sp. including V. rudicollis. In the last post, birds and rodents were offered: that is offering some variety. I offer frogs as a primary food source, not an only food source, because like in the US and Europe with rodents, where captive raised rodents are widely available, farm raised frogs (raised for human consumption) are widely available here. No, I am not suggesting mice are raised for human consumption, just pointing out that the frogs here are raised in highly controlled conditions.

Because I am overly protective in the care of my many reptile species, I presently do not feed birds, even though they are widely available, to my reptiles due to the ongoing bird flu here in SE Asia. One of the local crocodile farms lost many crocodiles to infected farm raised chickens, which scared me off until this virus is eradicated. Once bird flu is no longer an issue, birds will also be included in the diets.

As far as preferences go, when offered a large quantity of frogs with a rodent already in their stomachs, I had monitors regurgitate the rodents to make room for the frogs. In the end of the feeding, regurgitated rodents were on the floor and all the frogs were all gone. Since that had occurred, I only feed frogs or rodents at a single feeding or insects and frogs together. As stated in the earlier post, all the Varanus sp. native here (Thailand) love to eat frogs (V. bengalensis nebulosus, V. dumerilii, V. salvator and V.rudicollis – I am still trying to confirm V. flavescens in this country, so far without success.)

In my earlier post, I also wrote many monitors' desire for certain lizards. I have lost Calotes sp. and Physignathus to Varanus sp. whose lengths were almost equal (due to being at capacity at the time, I temporarily housed them together), notably V. prasinus, V. doreanus, and V. bengalensis nebulosus. There is something about these 2 groups of Agamids that monitors are crazy about. None of them will eat Hemidactylus (housed with all the monitors to eat the smaller insect which make their way into their terrariums), but I had one eat a Gekko this week.

In summary, all I am saying is that variety of whole foods offers more nutrients than a single whole food type. More nutrients- better diet. Of course, the source of the food items is important. Except for occasional lizards and fresh water crabs, all of the food items given to my monitors (frogs, fish, insects, and rodents) are farm raised. I am not refuting anyone's success with diets they have been using.

I have been looking for a sensibly-priced source of feeder frogs for weeks now.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

You wont find any in California that is for sure - try Carolina Biological Supply House = they are the foremost source of frogs for college dissections - since that dumb girl refused to dissect a frog and get an 'F' - those demonstrations and computer crap lessons they do now do not allow one - especially if they are going to Biological/medical sciences to feel the organs, see the true colors, do smear stains, blood cultures, cloacal exams, etc...if the frogs were farmed, whats the real harm to general population? That is in part why it is harder to get frogs (Rana pipiens) in US now.
mbayless

"Im not saying to only feed rodents, but as you said to me before offer them several choices and see what they want, my albigs have almost always preferred either rodents or birds over any other foods." -SHvar

Compare the fat content of the average rodent-based captive diet to that of a wild monitor. I'd be willing to bet it's a huge difference. Any biologists out there?

I'm sure my sav would "prefer" eggs 100% of the time. But, that would be a horrible diet.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

To Captive monitors, in the wild they eat what is available to eat, most abundant with the least effort to obtain and the highest return for that effort. In captivity we strive to give them a complete diet, more nutritious, and better without the problems of the wild, here they dont have to adapt.
In some areas many species eat one type of food or mostly one type, but their conterparts in another area eat a different diet, why, as I said, the food supply determines what they eat not their choice, what they are stuck with. Why do albigs in some areas eat mostly snails, yet in many areas they eat alot of songbirds, tree nesting birds, ground nesting birds, and some eat mostly reptiles such as cobras, puff adders, gaboons etc, they are eating what is available with the biggest return and the smallest effort. Rodents are mostly nocturnal, they dont eat too many in the wild for this reason.

Compare the fat content of the average rodent-based captive diet to that of a wild monitor. I'd be willing to bet it's a huge difference. Any biologists out there?

that study was done in 1969 with Varanus salvator and rodents.

mbayless

What were the results?
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

You mentioned it was done with Salvator. This is a very large species and known to get heavy in captivity. This however has more to do with the enviroment limiting factors and less to do with food items.

It is simple in how flawed it is. A wild monitor is in the wild. A captive one is in captivity.

A captive monitor can eat when it wants, can have more or less heat, is confined to an area limiting activity. All of this is especially evident or important with the larger species.

Wild monitors can only eat when food is available, have a vast endless area to move about in. They also are exposed to the elements which may or may not favor it.

In order to test these theories they have to have some common ground, you won't find alot of common ground when comparing a captive salvator to a wild one.

In the begining these studies may have been very useful. You had to start from someplace to figure out how to keep these animals. Now they have been kept and many have been successful with them in captivity. I myself would rather look into the ones kept in captivity to compare to then the wild ones. After all keeping them in captivity is what I am doing and is my goal.