Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My snake is better than yours. Ha just kidding. I agree with the post below that this was a good subject, while disagreeing about the mods. In being fair, things have gotten pretty rough on here and they let it go and work itself out and then delete the thread a day or two latter. All in all, I feel the mods do a pretty good job and no one has been banned for anything said that I know of. Other forums seem to have a different mod and there are more deleted threads Anyway back to cool stuff..

I figure if you think there was a good question than re-post it. Why not try again in the vein of a nice discussion.

So what do you guys think is the difference in the ringnecks that kill some snakes while others do fine eating them. I have never had any snake take a offered ringneck so I have no history. Is the diet of the feeder snake what kills the king?? (ie. Toxins from invertebrates eaten and stored) Is it a venom somehow used in a secondary defense?? Also, having spent no time pursuing this, I do not know if all of one sub of ringnecks are toxic or if it is locality related. In other words has anyone feed ringnecks from one spot to multiple or even the same snake and had different results??.

That should be a good start. Any other good questions/directions post them.

later Jason

P.s. If it was my post that got the original section deleted sorry to all

That several of the answers that was given were right on track.As to my opinion Im still not sure. LOL But I will say this I dont think Ill be feeding any ringnecks to any of my snakes just from that one experience I had. But that is me and my opinion.
Toby
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I dunno. Fed them (southerns) to e.corals--no problems. Tried them with scarlet kings--they wouldn't touch 'em.
I can tell you though, I'll be darned if I'll try them with my SFMK! Or any other snake for that matter.
I think one of my observations from many years ago where I nearly lost a Cal king because a ringneck bit down and held (as they will do at times to anything) the Cal's glottis was misinterpreted as an intentional act (aiming specifically for the glottis) when it was most likely a defensive "bite back whatever I can" thing. I mean since the little ringneck's head was in the Cal's mouth, he didn't really have a big choice.
By the way, I did not intentionally try to feed my Cal the ringneck. A classmate in our herp club at school thought he would be sneaky and slipped it in my Cal's cage.
I was not a happy kid. It took 20 min to get that li'l snake to let go.
I love the little ringnecks and if they got to be 3', I might keep them exclusively.
HA!
:Mark

But I know of nearly a dozen regal specimens in captivity at or over 3' in length. And the record is 42".

Someone(blanking on the name) reported a similar situation like your cali king/ringneck incident. It was a southern black racer eating a southern ringneck snake tail first. The ringneck snake was swallowed but bit down on the side of the racer's mouth. The racer died like some 18 hours later, and the ringneck just crawled away.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

...what makes you think I was joking?? The HA! at the end of my post??

If you look I use that a lot. I try to keep my posts a bit on the light side but it's hard when others seem to know what you think.
maybe it should be..HAHAHA???
Anyway, I assure you (and YOU should know)that I really do love the ringnecks. One of my first finds ever.
You are not the only person who likes them Mike.
:Mark

The "HA" came off a bit sarcastic.

You ever get those corn snakes feeding? I have 7 of them that won't feed, I can only imagine what their fate will be lol.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

man I get tired of having to post things twice, the deletions here are out of control...

Anyway here's a pretty good reference on regalis venom...

I have talked to Ryan about that study, and have kept NorthWestern Ringneck Snakes(the sub-species he used) for diet studies. And NW ringneck snake venoms is at no comparison whatsoever with regalis venom. A regal's bite is a hundred times stronger.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Mike,
It may well be, but it'd be nice to have a scientific study backing you up on that fact. Can you point us to a specific reference?
I'm trying to get us away from unsubstantiated statements.

Forks

I haven't written anything up on the subject, and neither has the guy I am working with on the NW ringnecks. But I only know of several people who've kept both NW ringnecks and regalis to make such a claim.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

I never saw that the first time. Seems I may have missed quite a bit. I am getting confused on the point of the snake killing the snake that eats it. I can see if there is a battle and the ringneck bites the king but most of the time kings are very efficient in killing their prey snake. Are the ringnecks salivating and exposing the kings that way? As far as I understood (Of course this came from a redneck snake handler in Florida) you can drink rattlesnake venom with no ill effects unless you had open wounds in your mouth. I never thought about that statement as it afforded me no useful information or at least none I wanted to test, but now I am curious. Anybody want to test that theory and let us know?? I don't understand the way the ringneck is supposed to be killing the king. I understand that nobody knows for sure but I would be interested in some theories as to what's going on.

For instance Mike you have a lot of first hand experience with the ringnecks what are you thinking is killing the kings and how. What method of delivery is used.

Later Jason

It's gotta be the saliva.

Say a regal ringneck snake, about 20" long gets into a little battle with a 13" california kingsnake. From what I've observed during live feeding trials, there is a 90% chance the regal will strike and nail the prey on the neck/head area. The kingsnake will probably flip, which once this happens, the prey gets cut. I actually had to clean blood off the side of an enclosure the other day because the garter did such.

Once the blood is flowing, the venom is flowing. And their venom is quite strong.

I don't believe a ringneck snake could take a kingsnake if the venom didn't affect them. A kingsnake would be able to fight it off easily. If... they had no venom.

But about 3-6 minutes after the bite of a 'venomous' ringneck snake, the king will start showing signs of paralyis.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

Yeah Mike I get the big ringneck killing little king bit but that was not the direction of the original thread. This being the Kingsnake forum we are talking about the big king eating the little ringneck and that king dies. I am asking why and how. I was under the impression that you may have seen this yourself. Have you or am I making a bad assumption?? No offense I just don't want to go in another direction.

This snake kills that snake and eats it. That scenario is common and not that interesting to me but the idea that these ringnecks are killing the kings that eat them is. What is happening in these situations to kill the king.

This post is sounding rude as I read it and its not meant that way. I am just to tired to think of a nice way to say what i did. So no offense. K??

Later Jason

lol... with the majority of the posts I've made on this board, I know not to take offense to anything.

I have only used ringneck snakes as feeders on purpose a couple times, and never once did they involve in a kingsnake. Usually eastern milk snakes were the predator, and small northern ringneck snakes were the prey. Never had a milk die or regurge. I've heard of many instances where a king or a coral regurged a ringneck though.

Most of these feeders are prairie ringneck snakes, mississippi ringneck snakes, and regal ringneck snakes. I know plenty of people that use southern ringneck snakes and northern ringneck snakes as feeders for years with no ill effects.

Someone brought up the topic of what are ringneck snakes eating to make them "poisonous" to what is consuming them. That person also said slugs are a possibility. And I agree. Slugs are often a common food for many sub-species of ringneck snakes, and some of the slugs are poisonous.

Another theory that popped into my head.... I know people that have fed ringnecks to corals, only to result in the loss of some coral snakes. The 2nd and 3rd time around, they tried teasing the ringneck snake, making it musk constantly and basically empty out it's stomach contents. And then those were used as feeders with no ill effects. My guess as to why.... After the ringneck snakes are ingested, they musk. They musk and crap everywhere while inside the consumer. I am not at all sure if this would have any effect on the snake regurgitating the ringneck, but it does sound likely to me. After all, most humans would spit something up if it tasted bad after it was swallowed.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

....not really...an easy mistake to make....but surely by now...you get it....it isnt relevant to compare it (eating musk) to what we would do...many snakes devour musky prey w/ gusto...& given rossi's acct of the esophogeal bite...it isnt.... really...subject to furthur conjecture=speculation....the anecdotal roots of the questions are there...obviously its time to let the experiments run their course

Actually while I agree his delivery was horrible I wonder if he may have something. I am thinking of the gut content more than the musk. To explain further I would think that the occurrence of esophageal biting would be mention a little more than it is if that was how all these ringneck related deaths were occurring. Especially in the case of the Corals. Since this is a kingsnake forum we won't get into that. The fact that most accounts are from the following day or at least hours latter and the ringneck is dead the idea of them clamp on to the inside of the throat is ridiculous. I don't discount the fact that it does occur I just don't believe it happens enough to even be mentioned as a defense strategy.

There has to be something chemical that is affecting the kings to kill them. The question is as a individual do you believe that it is the "venom" of the ringneck or some other toxin. If it is the venom why are some immune and others aren't . Further why can one king eat 10 ringnecks and then die while other can't eat one and still others eat all you give them with no problem. I think Frank did a good job on that one part but it got deleted. In short he said evolution combined with regional variance between snakes. Animal arms race etc. There was a lot more that he said but that was the idea.

My thoughts where more in the realm of gut content of the ringneck when eaten. I know of guys getting bit by Garter snakes in S. Florida and having a envenomation like response. I have always thought that when this happened it was from left over toxins from toads that were eaten by the garters. Also I had feeder lizards kill scarlet kings after i collected them from a yard that had been sprayed. Different animals can carry toxins within them that are not deadly to them while still being deadly to predators.

Seeing as no studies have been brought up it is all opinion. And everybody's is welcome.

Later Jason

....right
Mike knows Im (mostly) just teasing him. I appreciate his interest & occasional contributions to odd topics such as this...

Hey Jason...

I think it may have something to do with the ringneck's prey itself(like the slug theory). Or maybe certain sub-species of ringneck snakes have evolved into having toxins in the scales to derail predators?? Who knows. No one, to my knowledge, has ever done studies to see what is causing the deaths... Mainly because you would have to risk the lives of coral snakes and kingsnakes. Maybe someone should hang onto a reguritated ringneck... a dead king or coral that consumed it. And have someone perform a necropsy on both. That may or may not give us an idea of what's going on...

But Frank did have a good response until it was deleted.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

Thnx Joe for taking the time to scan n post that paper. I was lucky enough to be sent a copy by Richard Hoyer a few years ago.
Its amazing how little has been published in this regard.

Beers, RxR