Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just read the post about your red milk. First off man that is a beautiful speciman! I was just curious because you said it is a locality specific animal. As you probably know most field guides do not list the red milk as native to Alabama. However, I have picked up 3 perfect examples of these snakes in the Bankhead National Forrest in an undisclosed location....hehehe. I know that Dr. Mount only considered the specimans from the B.N.F. location as pure syspilla. Do you agree with this, or is your snake from a different locale in Alabama? I am curious only on a learning level and I am interested in absolutely no personal gain whatsoever. I am truly interested in this study for my future and it seems that you have similar interests since you are considering AU also. I hope to hear from you about this. I have a photograph of each of the animals I caught but I will have to retake a picture of the picture on my digital if you are interested. I apologize to anyone offended by this post since it is not in its proper place on the milksnake forum. Thanks alot.

Chris J

....I'd be glad to discuss this by phone. Shoot me an e-mail with your number or I can send you mine. Either way I want to talk to you about it.

e-mail me at mattbrock02@yahoo.com, not my KS addy.

Matt

In Alabama finds red milk snakes pretty easily... Found a piebald one a couple years back.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/6 NEW PICS/INFO

Mike, if you can give this info who is your friend? I "might" know him or know of him. I know one guy who has seen over 300 of them in the last few years.

The specimens I have are not from the B.N.F. They are from Madison County below Huntsville. I have no doubts that the Bankhead population is pure syspila. On that note, YES I would be highly interested in seeing those pics. And do you still have those animals? Not that I want them, but just curious.

I do beleive there are pure forms of syspila in other parts of AL, including the ones I have. As with any species one should expect a HIGH degree of variability, especially with a species as plastic as these. To the best of my knowledge these populations in particular are Mt. ranging snakes that retreat to high bluffs and rock ledges. They are seperated by valleys and seem to be isolated by these barriers. The reds on this mountain over here never interbreed with the reds over there. That kinda thing. So when there is no exchange of new gene flow certain phenotypes begin to appear and become the dominant form. Eastern milks have long since lost influence with some populations in Madison County, which leaves me to beleive these are in fact a very unique group of syspila, that "could" have had distant triangulum influence, but they no longer occur in some of these populations. With that said, I do beleive these are syspila, despite the v-shaped head pattern. If all other characteristics are evaluated then syspila is the only subspecies you can conclude. I have seen many syspila from Madison with the typical band behind the head, not connected by the v-shaped pattern, including the parents of the ones I have, and some of their siblings. I chose the snakes I have in particular because of their unique head patterns resembling those of triangulum to see if their offspring are as diverse as they are, or if they possess the v-shape or the typical syspila head pattern. Is all of this too confusing?

Wow! Thanks for responding so quickly! I have been very curious about the Madison county population of triangulum for quite a while now. I can not make a statement about those particular animals because I currently have no grounds for comparison. I believe I do understand what you were saying about the isolated populations. If the snakes are in fact isolated by barriers of some sort then there is definately a reduction in the gene pool that may account for some shared phenotypic similarity between the animals of the area. However, do you believe it to be possible to collect enough data or specimans to confirm any similarity in these popultions? I would really just love to gain some ground of comparison for the animals that I have collected. Unfortunately, I do not still have those particular specimans but I am confident that there will be more to come soon. I do have plenty of pictures and even some video tape....hehehe. They were quite the find. Anyway, I can not wait to further discuss this. I will email you tommorrow because I am extremely sleepy right now. Thanks for your interest and your help.

Chris J

Matt !!! finally. ( skipped school but is worth it he lol ) Yesterday Was kinda a cloudy but yet sunny day in the 80's here. and i couldnt take a chance not goin w/ my dad to Jackson County, Alabama.. and this place is full of rock outcrops and logs were covering the forest.. While dad was signing up for a hunting club.. I was lifting rocks after rock.. and found a copperhead and 3 ringnecks and a worm snake right off bat... and around the ponds a few midland water snakes.. nothing special.. and then i got dad and he showed me a spot that is way down a a rocky hill and had to go most of the way on the fourwheeler.. and here after looking a while dad said lets go now.. and looking over to where he is just shaking to death is a meduim sized canebrake.. i said hold on for a sec.. and we got on a four wheeler.. and all this would of made my dad but there was one large rock in a a sandy shaded area .. and right under it curled up was a 21 inch eastern milk snake !!! which looks like a intergrade.. sorry for the long post.. i was so excited. i have seen a milk in forever. this post is for you to Eric..

Sounds like you had one heck of a day. Skipping school is fine as long as you're finding snakes.....

I hope to get myself up in north AL soon to see what is going on up there. Nice finds!

Thanks alot.. Matt.. just got back flipping tin and found a baby black racer, and a black rat snake lol.. nothing special not like the milk.. Im so excited about this milk.. You should come up some time and look for milks w/ me in Jackson county..

Trust me I will plan a LOT of trips to north Bama next spring. I have got to get up there and photograph some of these snakes for personal documentation. Did you keep the little guy? You might should have if not. That's quite a find. I might even try to plan a trip up there in the very near future. Other than spring, I think October is the best time to catch these sneaky things.

Yeah, I kept him.. If you could come to dekalb county next month or in the Spring..ill show you some spots for northern pines and eastern milks.. great spots..And I know some spots for black kings.but barly see them.. i never find kings..but ill email u.. and we can do somthing sometime or another..oh yeah , I forgot to tell somthing lol.. my freind found a old trailer in the woods and got 3 corns out of it and alot of black rats !.. i didnt believe him at first.. so I drove over there and certainly he did have them.. So I told him to take me to the trailer and all I found were skins but hey eastern milk is better then a corn will ever be ,,, my opinion lol..