Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=901737,901737

This is regarding Bubba the alligator passing away
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

is it the lack of sentence structure? Possibly the fact it is all pushed into 1 unintented paragraph? The fact it was posted into another forum? Or something deeper that I am missing here.
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

While on a personal level, I didn't agree with the way Bubba was publicly displayed in terms of allowing children to ride his back, I feel sorrow for Jim in what must be a tremendous loss for him. I was sure Bubba what much older than what was reported because I believe I saw him at a symposium in Chicago in approx 1994 when he was about 5 feet in length. Maybe it was a different one. In any event, I know how I would feel if it were me.

Bill

I really hate to see someone lose an animal that meant that much to him, however, the animal I would certainly HOPE was MUCH older than that. Chris Dieter and I spoke a little bit about this, and he said that a urinary tract infection is rarely fatal in crocodilians. I agree that I didn't necessary like the idea of kids riding around on his back, etc. but an animal that docile seems that there would be something wrong with him. I just hope it wasn't due to husbandry practices, but I certainly wish him the best. I have never had an opportunity to see the alligator in person...only in pictures. He was certainly an impressive animal. I just can't seem to accept that an alligator would just sit on a table for hours at a time, and be willing to let children ride on his back. It could be just me.

I certainly feel sorry for his owner though, as it must be really hard.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

"I agree that I didn't necessary like the idea of kids riding around on his back, etc. but an animal that docile seems that there would be something wrong with him. I just hope it wasn't due to husbandry practices, but I certainly wish him the best. I have never had an opportunity to see the alligator in person...only in pictures. He was certainly an impressive animal. I just can't seem to accept that an alligator would just sit on a table for hours at a time, and be willing to let children ride on his back. It could be just me."

My alligator Osceola is amazingly docile, and tractable, and in the years I have had her has never bit or struck at anyone. I feel great loss for Jim, and personally feel that Bubba was just a special animal who had a special bond with his keeper. I did meet Jim and Bubba several times and he seemed to be in great health, and Jim seemed verry knowledgable about his care, ect.

It is a horrable shame that he has passed on, but I do not think an animal like him has to be sick to be tractable, or else my alligator Osceola must also be horrably sick. (which she is not)
She has been conditioned to situations and much like Bubba sits on a table through programs and allows herself to be pet and handled. She will sit for long periods of time, but I have to be at attention with her because sometimes she likes to get up and stroll around.

I no longer actively post here and just lurk now because popular opinion seems to be I am doing all the wrong things with my animal, and therefore "threatening" the hobby but she seems to be doing fine.

I think its a shame that because Bubba was an exceptional animal, rather then say Jim had an exceptional and close relationship and was able to do more then most people can with this sort of creature, it must be assumed that the animal was always sick, or miscared for, or something like that.

My first impression isn't always...."The animal must be sick!". However, even though I feel that this animal had to have been a bit older than what was posted, this animal surely didn't live it's full life span that it could if this animal wasn't sick. I also have an Alligator that is quite docile (hissy from time to time, but docile). It is has only bitten me once, but that was by my error. I perfectly well understand that there are some alligators that simply have a docile temperament. Bill Moss has a 7ft alligator that I am sure is perfectly healthy and from what I can tell his animal is incredibly docile. Israel Dupont has shared photos of "Pop" from Gatorland which is yet another amazingly docile animal that I am positive is very healthy.

However, the chances of a crocodilian dying at that young of an age, just seems to me to be due to a serious illness that has been overlooked over a period of time until it got serious, or due to a lack of proper husbandry. My only thought as far as husbandry is the possible consistent traveling with the animal that could prevent it from getting proper environmental conditions. I am only throwing thoughts out there....

However, please don't get the impression that I am attacking this individual. I dont know him or his husbandry practices. I feel just as bad for his loss as you do. Just the young age of this alligator and his untimely death just really makes me ponder....

Best Wishes,

Chris

P.S> In the photo you provided in your post, I think your alligator looks really good. In the photo he appears to be healthy and strong. I am well aware that after alot of time handling and working with your animals it can certainly make a difference which could have been the case with Bubba, as it appears to be the case with you.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

Ah, Sorry for junping then, I was not really directing the comment only to you, but I know that alot of people disagreed with Jims handaling practices, and I have heard it stated before, "Its just a matter of time untill the animal snaps" or other similar remarks.

I disagreed with those, in that, I believe if the animals keeper is alert and aware of the animals behavior and moods, then such things are unlikely to happen. I know accidents or anything can happen, but one can do a great deal to minimize such things with a little bit of care and caution.

I know of Smiley, and have seen photos of her with Bill. She is a spectacular looking animal.

I do not know how Bubba traveled, where he stayed or any of the particulars, and I really can not comment on any of that. I know I will not keep my girl anywhere more then overnight or a couple days, and only is I have a safe and comfortable place for her to stay. I also do not know what Bubba was fed, his home temps or anything else like that either, and was just going by what I know of Jim From the 2 breif times I met him.

I agree that if Bubba was only 17 or so, that is very young for an alligator to die, and concerning, as I did not know that they could succomb to urinary track infections, and I am concerned that such a healthy looking animal could have one.

Thank you for your comment on Osceola - I have included another of her. She goes to the vet once a year for a wellness check, (more if needed, but she has not) and we have had X rays of her as she was quite sick when I recieved her, and she did have MBD and needed calcium. Her bones looked healthy after the first year, and besides some splayed teeth on the front of her lower jaw, she seems like a perfectly healthy animal.

Here she is being held by another friend -

As someone who knows Jim and knew Bubba personally, I do know that for a while now they have been doing many bloodtests, vet workups, Double and triple checking of enclosures. For the Nescis this has been going on for several months. I know that Jim has been trying to find the answers with what wasnt right with Bubba. Its hard to treat what you cant always find. I highly doubt it was husbandry, simply because I know Jim was double checking everything he was doing on that end.

Also after working MANY shows with the boys, I can promise that Jim did stress the massive needs for care of this boy. That alligators are not for everyone, let alone most people.

I know many of the crocodillian keepers did not approve, but as a person who occasionally has to deal with Gators in rescue, I am thankful for the handling tips and advice I was able to get from Jim.

Just wanted to clear up that both husbandry and medical issues were being looked at heavily. I think a lot of the issue was as with all reptiles, a lack of available science.

BTW There was a typo I believe the year jim got bubba should have been 1988, not 1998. Because I think I have a shot of him from 1997.
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Cindy
PHFaust

hfaust@pethobbyist.com" target="_blank">Email Cindy

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