Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My father is a loan shark but we came to an arrangement. I will be repaying him 2500 a year for 5 years, which is manageable. I know that 10k isn't much to many of you with 30k snakes. Here's my question:

If you were looking to make a profit how would you go about doing it? This could be breeding or simply purchasing snakes to resell them in the future for a profit. I have a good amount of space and racks etc so you need not include that in the costs. I'd love to make some bumble bees so I think a spider female is in need. What would you do?

I'm prepared for the chance of the whole thing going down the drain, but the payments come to a little over 50 dollars a week so it won't be the end of the world.

Thanks for any and all help, I'd love to hear your ideas.

Cole Maas

If it were me I would go with a spider male and a pair of pastels and then as many normal females as I could get. This way you could get your bumblebees with the spider to female pastel and then split the normals between the pastel and spider males.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons

If bumblebees are what you're into, and you can hustle another 2k out of your father, there's a bumblebee male and pastel female on KS right now if you do some looking, for 12k.. Make some KILLER BEES! Get a bigger jump.. And also any normal females you breed him to you'll get pastels, spiders and maybe BUMBLEBEES! In my opinion, MAKE THE JUMP, you'll get further ahead..
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

...
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

I would get a male pied, a male albino and as many het females as you can get for your 10K.

There is almost no way to lose as long as you don't kill them.

You're basically spent after you buy the males... The better way to go would be a male het pied and male albino, and then as many female hets you can buy. That's the way to go if you've got a 10k spending limit and want to get into pieds and albinos.. What good is a homozygous pied if you can't afford enough het females to breed him to? Just my opinion...
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

Buy a codom male like a Spider ready to breed, spend the rest on normal females, ready to breed. Breed the spider to the females then at the end of the season sell that spider male for the same price you bought him for and pay your dad back at least most of the money, or buy something else to breed to those females next year.

Either way you go you got some baby spiders and you only ended up paying for the breeder normal females.(if the ball python gods are on your side.)

not to get too many females per male? You keep saying as many females as you can afford, but a single male spider can't breed 10 females.

Keep your ratio 1.3 or 1.4 for best results. You don't want your males working too hard, and you want all your females to lay good clutches.

1) Not all females will produce adequate-sized follicles at the SAME TIME.

2) Not all females will breed every year.

3) Not all females will grow up and be ready at the SAME TIME.

THEREFORE, if you want 4 or 5 clutches from a male, get at LEAST 10 females and hope that 1/2 of them are ready to go in their 2nd season, if not then their 3rd.

One male can EASILY knock up 8 females by the by.

That makes sense...

I just read that having a male breed too many females results in smaller clutches, or more slugs. Did I read wrong, or is this just with young males??

"I just read that having a male breed too many females results in smaller clutches, or more slugs. Did I read wrong, or is this just with young males??"

MANY many things can contribute to this. Not necessarily spreading a male too thin.

.

Buy what you like - breed what you you enjoy - this is not a get rich quick business - don't expect to make money - be happy if you break even - be ecstatic when you've paid off the loan and have made enough to buy soemthing else you like. Be prepared that your animals may not breed - pray to the gods for good odds if they do and be humbled by your failures and successes.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

np

Sounds like a nice mantra. You didn't cross-stitch that, did you? Maybe hang it over your kitchen sink?

(You should. There is a lot of truth in those stitches.)

Chris
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mean people suck

Just a thought....don't talk about your father being a loan shark on a public forum. Just not a good idea...my 2 cents

if it were me...
1.1 pastels
1.1 het pieds
0.1 spider
1.0 hypo
0.1 het hypo
An if you'er a good negotiator, and buy them from no more than 2 breeders you should still be able to get a few normal females thrown in.
With these you should have some fun Mixin and matching.
Good luck!
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

why not go for less money and make more money......so you have no debt for that many years

ok.......you want a female spider......cry and whine and look around for one.....start asking for one at $2000 and see how close to that you can get one for.....

then you'll need a male pastel I guess.....another $700 or less...

then you might as well get some females.......captives for sure........I mean captive in the USA not Africa.....alot of people will lie to you on birth place.....

so you can then make bumblebees and alot of pastels to pay off loan.....

take it slow ........you'll make money.......

find someone with CBB girls.......baby or older of possible........

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"If you were looking to make a profit how would you go about doing it? This could be breeding or simply purchasing snakes to resell them in the future for a profit...What would you do?"

I would definitely avoid the live animal business. It sounds like you have no personal interest in the animals at all. Breeding or brokering. The question revolves purely around profit. This is a bad idea.

Chris
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mean people suck

Get Male co-doms like a pastel, spider, mojave, Cinnamon pastel, Yellow bellie they are all in and under the 10,000 range. You might have others you could get but short run..... Co-doms are best I think. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Well, if you have not taken the money, I would not take it, and wait until you have $1K of your own money, and buy some normal females and a Pastel male, or a trio of het Ghosts. I think it is a bad idea to go into debt banking on live animals making you millions, ESPECIALLY with family. It is a very BAD way to start. What if you spend your $10K and your prize male, or female dies? What do you tell your dad? You probably do not tell him, and have to start making up stories to cover.......

Ok, so if you have taken the money, what do do with it. I would get a Pastel Pair, Pastel males are great back up breeders, and Pastel females are gold, I saw male Pastels for $550 and females for $1200 at Anaheim. So there goes $1750. I would get a Ghost and Albino female, which will go about $5000 for both, leaving you about $3250 left, which I would use to get a nice Pied male, and breed him to your Albino and Ghost females, making some [bleep]in DH's. Breed the Pastels, or take the Pied to the Pastel, and breed your male Pastel to some normal females. What are you going to do about caging? Incubator, food, thermostats, Helix controls. Racks are expensive, and it is very easy to lose $$$$$$ eggs if you use a cheap or faulty incubator, I know from experience. You are going to go a year or two with probably no money coming in, unless you have some normal females for your Pastel male....you seem to be counting on making big money, and quickly. I honestly think you are in for a rude awakening, and so is your dad. If I was you, I would look at a pair of het clowns, Clowns are going to be very sought after for awhile, you can get a pair for under $3K-Het pair, and maybe get a Het Pied pair too, for like $1500, Het Pieds are cheap now. You spent less than half your money-or your dads money, and if you cannot get anything to breed, if you have bad luck, if eggs mold, snakes do not lay, you will find out relatively cheapy. BUT, get what you like, if you just love albinos, get a pair, and maybe a het pair of ghosts, but I would NOT spend all the $10K at one time. Especially if you have not gotten a rack yet. If you love Albinos, get a nice Albino female, get the male next year when he probably will be cheaper, take it slow, do not make any hasty decisions.

First off, by saying my father is a loan shark I meant to me, not the public lol.
About not having any real interest in the snakes, that's wrong, I first bred ball pythons at the age of 11(call me a liar it won't bother me).
3rd- 200 dollars a month is less than 10% of my average income so it wouldn't be the hardest thing to pay off.
4th- I'd be registering a ficticious name and regsistering as an actual business.
5th- I've always wanted to pursue herpetoculture, this is a good chance to really get something started.

That being said this is what I was thinking.

Use the 10k towards 2 female 04 pastels and 2 female 05 spiders. It would be a stretch but if I could get all the animals from the same person I think I could do it. If not, I'd throw in a little more. I do have money, I'm only taking the loan because I don't want to tap out the bank. I would breed my pastel to the pastel females reached breeder size. Hopefully I'd get a male super, which would be ready to breed around the time the female spiders were. Breed them, get 50% of the clutches bumblebees, then take one of the males and breed it back to its pastel grandmothers to prodoce killerbees and so forth. Normal females would be thrown in as in extra and other snakes could be added along the way.

The way I see it, even if the breeding gods frowned upon me I could at least make back the investment selling the adult snakes I bought as babies.

Please let me know what you think about that.

Cole Maas

It take females 2-3 years to raise up to breeding size. I don't think sticking the 10,000 in all females is a wise move for a quick return.Yea in 3-4 years you would hit jack pot if nothing went wrong. If you get any male this year he should breed by the following year. So you could possibly buy a mojave/spider/cinnamon or what ever for a few thousand dollars and pay the loan back in 1-2 years, With 1-2 normal females and a Co-dom male you should get atleast 6 eggs each that is 12 eggs and say you go way low and only get 4 spider babies at 2500 each that is 10,000 on a 3,500-4,000 dollar investment, if you used a spider. This is just my opinion. Hope this helps. I started out with a 1650.00 pastel male and a 65.00 big female, She laid 12 eggs 8 pastels and 4 normals.....They more than piad for themselves. I had more females but this was just one of the best clutches, the others were 3 pastels out of 4 eggs and 3 pastels out of 3 eggs. I am hope this year is better. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Sounds like plan.
Only thing I would say, from my observations, is that the trend seems to be moving torwards mixes- codom/resessive, or double ressesive.... I would consider at least one res. animal (what ever you like) or het pair, instead of a second pastel female especially if you already have a pastel male...
MHO
Your father sounds like a good guy, does he want to adopt a middle aged daughter? LOL
Good luck

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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

so a middle aged daughter would be feasible, if it wasn't for the fact that his GF is 33 lol. It would be kind of akward for you but I'll ask.

Cole Maas

One thing to remember - this year we've seen pastels down to $400 and spiders down to the $2K range - in the next three years these prices will continue to drop - more people will have these animals and the same breeding plan as you - when you pop out your first clutch in 2-3 years consider what your market will look like at that time.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

IF your only concerned about money stay away from ball pythons, all that your going to do is breed them then sell them, probably before they even get a few meals down, and then your going to make a bad name for your self.
Also if you care for snakes, stick with albinos, or pieds, look at the price tag the last few years, when compared to spiders and pastels. The albinos and pieds hold their own.
thanks
tony butler

The safest thing is to give the money back, save up some, and go from there.

The next safest thing to do is buy about 250 captive hatched females next year as early as you can get them. And a couple pastel males. Contact big importers and tell them you want them as soon as the females come in next spring.

Pick through them as soon as you get them and sort them for color and pattern. You might get lucky and pick up a few yellow bellies or girls with a lot of blushing and light tone. Some will likely die or not eat, and die.

With the rest... Feed them as much as you can and get them to about 800 grams and then start advertising them for $200 each or what ever in groups. I'm guessing you'll be able to buy them for about $10 - $12 each in a 250 lot depending on who you talk to and how nice a quality you go for. If you can sell them for $150 in less than a year, you'll make about 30% - 300% on your money in a year after you pay for the animals, food, cages, bedding, and power, and misc items.

Keep back the best eaters that are light colored and reduced pattern and breed your pastels to them in about 2 - 3 years. You'll make the bulk of your cash in retailing snakes for a large mark up and make some fun cash by selling pastel babies and get experience in the process.

Jason

I'm not overly worried about the risks(though I aknowledge they are there)or the payback time. The loan won't be paid for by the snakes, it will be paid for out of my pocket.

Recessive traits are great, they will hold their value much better than codoms. The problem is, even with albinos, female hets aren't cheap. I'd buy a homozygous male and het females theoretically, but once again I'd want to buy at least 04 female hets.

Anyone know what adult female het albinos or sub-adult-adult female het pieds run?

Cole Maas

They aren't sold. If someone is listing a het pied female or albino that is close to breedable, then you need to do extra checking. It doesn't make sense to raise one up and then sell it right before you can breed it.

Co-doms are safe for people that aren't known because of all the scammers out there that sell "hets".

Stick with animals that are obviously genetic and you don't have a headache that simple recessive folks do. I personally won't buy hets or even possible hets from people that I don't know.

personally, I would have figured out what I was spending the $ on BEFORE going through the trouble of getting the $. But here's an idea...come up with something you haven't seen...or just try some things you think would be interesting. Just an idea though.

Chris
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0.2.0 Grey Rats-Lauren, Avril
1.2.0 Black Rats- Robert, Cady, Kylie
1.2.0 Albino FL Kings-Nick, Jessica, Ashley
1.1.0 Crimson Corns-Kane, Ruby
0.1.0 Het-Crimson Corns-Lola
0.1.0 White-Sided/Pos Het Albino Black Rat-Lita
1.0.0 Albino White-sided Black Rat-Rey
0.1.0 Albino/Het White-sided Black Rat-Stacey
1.2.0 Creamsicle Corns-Vince, Trish, Torrie
0.1.0 Fl King-Bonnie
1.0.1 Biak GTP-Brandon, Aru GTP-Orochimaru
1.0.0 Flame X Blood Bearded-Ruff
1.4.0 Ball Pythons-Kritsy, Gretchen, Alexis, 100% het for albino balls- Naruto, Hinata
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor-Izzy