Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Few weeks ago I obtained this group of ornatus, It’s been 15 years sins the last time they where imported in MTL, at that time I was only able to get one but still this one animal was enough to get me hooked on them. Some time ago I posted about a group of Saharans I obtained to get some experience with uromastyx, I set them as Iv been keeping my monitors for years and they grew like weed (all 10 no exception) unfortunately my struggle with cancer as led me to reluctantly sell them. Anyway to the subject, this group of ornatus arrived unexpectedly just when I was flat broken, thankfully my friend agreed to hold on to them a few weeks so that I could raise the money up. Unfortunately in this time they lost weight and 3 got very week, no1 the green male was just skinny and fed like a pig no2 was skin and bones with paralysed back legs but still accepted food no3 was the worst she refused all foods and had bloody stool, she didn’t show sins of MBD but very skinny and lethargic. Now to the point, it seems to be a common belief that such animals should be treated with wormers or should be left to die at the dealer, without getting into this kind of debate, Id like to say that iv stop using any medication (flagel-droncit-panacure) years ago because I consider husbandry more efficient then medication, most illness are illness of husbandry and without curing the cause treating the disease is futile.
In the case of these 3 ornatus no medication was given, only proper husbandry and food, no1 double its weight in the 2 weeks iv got them, no2 also gained weight and is running all over with no sing of paralysis whatsoever, no3 is still very skinny and has refused all foods offered until last night and today, this poor female remained motionless in the same spot 2 days in a row, I was quit sure she was leaving us, but believe it or not when offered a black cricket she literally jumped at my fingers to catch and swallow it up, she eat 6 of them today and hopefully will be alright, at least I have hops now.

Why this post? Simply because this hobby is filled with prejudice, not only prejudice when a French guy with a strange vocabulary like mine post something different then what is normally accepted as standard for the specie. But prejudice in husbandry as well, its prejudice when we are given a one sided vision on husbandry, should I have listened to most keepers these would probably be dead already, should I have listened to professional advising me to use drugs not only once but repeatedly they would probably be dead. I know that many advise are given with noble intensions, but dehydrating a lizard will do nothing good for him regardless of how well intended the advise is.
Just tot id share the future development of my group with you uro lovers.

Rgds
Ps. Lately iv read about PE views on uromastyx husbandry on their site, good stuff really the best iv seen yet

Jobi,

Congratulations on the success so far with these animals. Do let us know how things continue to go.

There are a few points that I would like to make and they have nothing to do with prejudice or who speaks what language or how well.

Although some people may advise to medicate all new uromastyx or those that are thin, many do not advise medication unless it is warranted such as a confirmed heavy overload of parasites or the identification of parasites that are considered more harmful than others. Those that know me will tell you that I do not believe in eradicating every parasite I see.

I agree with you completely with this statement:
"most illness are illness of husbandry and without curing the cause treating the disease is futile."

I would also agree that medicating an extremely dehydrated animal is not always in the animals’ best interest.

However, you mention nothing regarding what was officially found medically with your ornates only that some were thin, had difficulty walking, and one had some blood in the feces. Some of these symptoms could be the result of an emaciated/weakened animal, injury that caused temporary paralysis, stress from moving/shipping, straining upon defecation..ect. If your animals lost weight and went downhill due to husbandry issues and stress, this does not mean that other uromastyx with true immediate health issues such as a heavy load of hookworms will respond as well to just improving husbandry.

I am extremely thorough with my husbandry including the use of larger enclosures and maintaining a very specific and well monitored gradient temperature and variable basking spot. I have acclimated dozens of wild caught uromastyx and can guarantee you that some would have been lost without medical intervention and/or medication. Even with proper husbandry, food, and hydration, some animals are in a weakened state with so many parasites that it does not allow them to rebound on their own. One case in point was a pair of Macfadyeni that I received in May. Even with my precise husbandry, there is no doubt in my mind that these animals would be dead had I not intervened with medication. The parasite load was so heavy that they formed one large mass on the microscope slide. The overgrowth of organisms involved at least three different parasites- some not so friendly.

Although your particular situation seems to be working out fairly well for you two weeks in, this does not necessarily mean that the health situation with your three ornates has anything to do with the health issue of the next person’s animals. Thus, I would encourage everyone out here to not only focus on proper husbandry but to also focus on the entire picture including testing to confirm or rule out health conditions that may warrant treatment.

What I would like to see would be data such as the type and amount of parasites found on the slide for each uromastyx and then evaluate that against the recovery using husbandry alone. Verifying that a heavy load of hookworm, coccidian, or Strongyloides can be brought down to an acceptable level (confirmed by repeat slides) in a significant number of uromastyx with husbandry alone, would be very compelling data.

I think we agree on a few things- medications should not be an automatic procedure with all uromastyx and husbandry should be the first thing corrected.
The point we may differ on is that not all situations are the same. Although husbandry alone may work well for a thin uromastyx that is going through acclimation or a thin uromastyx with a manageable type and number of parasites, it may not work well for a thin uromastyx going through acclimation with a more acute medical condition that warrants treatment.

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I fully agree with you, and even-though I sometime sound like if I am making a strong statement, I am actually just thinking out loud, maybe I am right maybe not? But the important is to share the observations. Unfortunately most breeders don’t!

The reason iv stop treating parasites is simple, I really think the animals if given the tools can do a better job at it then me, take for example female no3, this female was a dead female in my book, why she refused all foods when the 5 others all fed no problem? She took crickets instantly! Is it because she needs the proteins? Or is it because she needs the bacterial flora of the insect in order to digest plant matter? Seems to me uromastyx need animal foods periodically for gut management, perhaps they need these high proteins food more often then spring (egg development) and fall (fattening) to be successful in our care.

Few years ago I was told Saharans are difficult to establish, expect to lose a few (actually 30% lose) was given. This statement really shows how badly we understand this specie, few weeks ago I was told the same about my ornatus group, the funny thing is I got worried sick even though I knew better, still I dough Ted and was almost ready to shut gun therapy those pour uros. Thankfully I listen to the animals first and foremost, they tell me if it’s too cold, too hot, too dry or any other thing they need better then anyone.