Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just wondering what sort of enclosure you all recommend for a 05 baby, I was thinking a sterilite shoebox, but I am not sure about other enclosures, I am only getting one and it will be strictly a display animal, I already have my hands full breeding ball pythons and frilled dragons, So any other alternatives would be greatly appreciated, what do you think about a ten gallon with the screed to covered to maintain humidity also what sort of wood should I use for a permanent enclosure, will Melamine suffice?
thanks
tony butler

I use a Rubbermaid I think 3 gal. plastic container with a heat emitter on the top. You don't want anything too big for those little babies, or they feel insecure. Once they're up to a decent size, or somewhere around a year, you can move them to a regular enclosure. I know Shiloh made his own from a large rubbermaid container and put a plexiglas door on the front. I just ended up getting a Vision 222 cage for mine. It's stackable so that will work when I eventually get my baby into it's full sized one as well. And if you think you'll be able to stop at just one.....fuggetaboutit!!

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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

Is there anywhere I can get some instructions to build one? I am not familiar with ceramic heat emitters at all and I dont want to cook the python, Also where can a get a good quality captive bred baby, I saw some at Top Shelf Exotics, and I recently bought a trio of het albino ball pythons from them two weeks ago, is it safe to buy a GTP from them? I have heard you need to watch were you buy them
thanks
tony butler

www.finegtps.com

Read ever section of that website, then buy his book.

Stay far far away from kingsnake's classfieds for chondros. its 95% farmed and w/c chondros you dont want to deal with.

I dont think topshelf produces their own chondros.

Buy a chondro from the person who produced it! I can't stress that enough!

There are about 2 brokers who sell chondros i would trust and i know are good people. But finding these 2 out fo the 100's out there is hard.

www.moreliaviridisforum.com
www.chondroweb.com
Anything from these above websites are good!

both safe spots for chondros.

Kingsnake is not the best place for chondro's or chondro advice. .. well... aside form this advice

-JG

I've purchased two from Troy Frantz at Frantz Herpetological. He sell CBB chondros for reasonable prices and they're very nice. He's been great to do business with.

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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

I regulate the temps with a good proportional thermostat made by Spyder Herpstat. It works great and is pretty reasonable in price.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

I know a couple of breeders who franz herps gets their chondros from.

I still say just go to the source and buypass the middle men. Good guys or not... It's all a matter of opinion really.

Example. I have 2 pedigree cats. My breeder calls me about once every other month to check on the cats i have from her. She also makes a point to stop in and say hello to me and the cats when ever she's in my neck of the woods and even drops of some cat toys. If one of my cats has a cold (which it did) She gave me the run down on local vets and told me which one i should go to. SHE HAS A PASSION FOR THESE ANIMALS!! Sure i could have went ot a pet store and got a cat out of a bin paid my 100 bucks and have been done with it. But i chose to support someone who has the exact same passion about her animals as i do mine (Chondros).

By no means am i a cat person. I have 2 they dont breed, they are just cats and i enjoy my time with them. I say this to someone looking for just 1 chondro. Not to breed, just to enjoy their time with the animal.

Not to disrespect Franz Herp in any way im sure he's a herper at heart and might even keep a few animls for himself. But.... well, you decide what you wanna do.

-JG

My first chondro.. Green as can be. I got from a local breeder, who i talk to about twice a month. He calls to say hello, shoot the breeze about chondros as ask about "that first chondro" he sold me. He has also helped me with my first clutch and was even there when the first baby pipped!

I have very similar "pleasant" follow up and "now they are my friends" storys about all of my chondros.

I agree Julian, however, I can call Troy just about any time and get the same kind of help. I send him pictures of her periodically, tell him about her progress, and he always takes the time to e-mail me back. I'm not saying you will always get this from the "broker" near you, but I am saying I get the same kind of great service from him that I would expect from a breeder. I've spent more than a few hours on the phone with him, especially after my little one got stuck on the tape. He made me feel much better. It's kind of like dog breeders. I bought my first Rhodesian Ridgeback from people who could be termed "Backyard Breeders". They didn't have an official kennel, but they did show their dogs, they did make sure their animals were OFA'd, I was able to call them often with questions and we also became good friends. If I only went to an established breeder, I would never have had such a nice dog, and found such great friends, so not always is the breeder always the only place to go. The Ridgebacks I just purchased now are from a very old, established kennel with champions by the truckload, and they aren't half as nice as my first one was. Yes, there is a risk, but I did my homework before I bought. I researched, looked up comments on the B.O.I., found his prices were very reasonable and everything. I can't complain. My little Sarong is everything he said she'd be, and more!I was expecting my Jayapura yesterday, but he contacted me to say that with the hurricane coming to Texas, he didn't feel comfortable with shipping and having the animal get stuck somewhere, so we're waiting to see how things are next week. I can only respect that!
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

i agree with Julian as well... you might get good service with Troy, and thats great, but i think the point Julian is trying to make is that you are taking his word on the snake being CB...
their are some brokers that the forums support, but Troy does not seem to be one of them... i might be wrong but i seem to remember that one of the members from the other forums used to work with Troy and got most of his snakes from him, and they were only doing imports at the time...
i was planning a trip this weekend to go down but something came up and i will probably end up doing it next weekend... i should get a fair idea what the real deal is if he lets me walk around a bit...
i will post nothing but the facts, i will post pics if i am allowed... i guess we will know soon enough... (or at least have my opinion)

Shiloh
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Hey Shiloh,
That would be great, you will be the Undercover brother for the Gtp keepers here. LOL! Get back to us, and let us know how it pans out.
-Angel
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In life you can fall many times, but you're only a failure, if you don't try to get back up!
Evil Canevil

Hey,
I have to agree, Troy is top notch, and willing to help out where he can and offer support as a follow up to a sale. I've spent an hour on the phone with him the other night too, at about 3am NYC time, while he was doing his duties with the little gtp's and in the process of feeding trials. He's alright in my book.
Also, what is this acronym: OFA'd?
-Angel
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In life you can fall many times, but you're only a failure, if you don't try to get back up!
Evil Canevil

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals????

where did you see it???

Shiloh
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

I had mentioned it when I was talking about the breeders that I got my ridgeback from.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

Meg mentioned purchasing a Ridgeback from a backyard breeder... but that the breeder had OFA'd her adults. Shiloh is right, Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is OFA and they maintain a registry of adult dogs of at least 2 years of age that have had their hips x-rayed and cleared of hip displasia. You have to have your vet take the film and mail it to OFA for certification. They will grade the hip sockets according to way the joint fits together. (layman terms). Breeders of large dogs owe it to their breeds to not produce more dogs with bad hips if they want to do what is best for the breed future.

I am new to herp world... but know dog world too well. I would say Meg that you bought your dog from a responsible breeder, NOT backyard. Backyard breeders don't care about the health or future of the animals they breed. They are just doing it for the money/because they want their kids to witness birth/whatever lame reason they may want to have. Responsible breeders don't have to be big name kennels or have top winning show dogs.

I worked with a few breeds, each breed has their genetic weaknesses and reponsible breeders will test genetically whenever they can to prevent possible future problems.

I believe some breeders of reptiles might look to the good side of the dog fancy for some responsible breeding ideas. I hate seeing dogs bred before they are two years of age... heck they are still puppies themselves. In the herp world I see people that buy high end morphs power feeding their animals trying to make them grow up faster so they will breed faster. I think this is poor economics. It certainly must be detrimental to the snakes too. Line breeding is an excellent tool when trying to "set traits".... inbreeding will set the traits too, but at what future expense to the animals.

I think one of the most visible examples of responsible breeding in the chondro world has to go to Damon Salceies with his albino gtp, Floyd. Instead of breeding to produce as many albinos as possible, Damon took the other direction of hoping to produce hets and possible hets from bloodlines very diverse from the original lines. Responsible and looking out for the future of the gtps? You BET!!!

You want to support captive breeders who want to the the progression of these animal. Not just one off them and stick a locality claim on them.

Not to poke at your animal but how do you know its a Jayapura animal? (Jayapura is a town, chondros are collected around Jayapura not from there). Did you get a photo of the sire and damn. Hell maybe it was crossed somewhere down the line with a wamena or a sorong or a ____. But this is the locality debate. Which i wont go in to... point being Captive breeders will most likely NEVER tell you you're getting a locality animal. They will show you photos of the parents and say "you have a sorong type.. But hey here are photos of the sire, dam and heres a pedigree with your animal as well, Feeding charts growth chart etc".

There are alot of reasonable priced animals on the market. I was selling CBB pedigree animals i hatched for 400 bucks. This upsets me when people bargin shop for these animals. I would LOVE for someone to raise up any chondro from a baby. Spends LOTS of money getting it ready to breed. Spends hours documenting every step of the way (copulation, ovulation etc) Then spend hours of sleepless nights getting babies to feed. Spending time on the web site. Making packages for coustomers. Assist feeding stubborn feeders. Taking photos. Answering questino on line and on the phone etc etc and have the F-ing nerve for someone to say their animals are over priced and they are going to go to some farmed broker and get an animal for 100 bucks less!?

I'm sorry but this pisses me off to no end. Not saying I dont have a problem selling my animals. Given they sold very very quickly with little advertising. But there are ALOT of people like me who put their blood sweat and tears in to these animals. Spend thousands of dollars and hours upon hours with the hobby and truely LOVE these animals.

Though i dont think anyone can truely appreachate a CBB chondro until they have one. The difference is night and day.

I honestly dont know why i bother on this website half the time. Maybe to curve that one or 2 people and show them "the light".... its fustrating.

Ease up there Shiloh! I believe I said that I was getting a Jayapura type, not a locality animal. I don't think I've ever called my Sarong, a Sarong locality either. I call her a Sarong type. They do have distint features that even Greg lists in his book. I know you don't like the brokers, and that's fine, however, I choose to take Troy at his word. My animal that I got is healthy and growing. Her temperament was as promised (awesome I might add) and she eats like a champ. He states that he gets his from a local (in Kansas) breeder who sells him whole clutches that he doesn't want to have to start feeding. You might want to complain about that breeder instead. Evidently, he sells on his own, so he must have a website out there somewhere.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

Hey,
I just wanted to follow up with what Julian is saying about shady brokers and dealers. I can't talk from experience as I don't or have not bought from shady characters, however, there are plenty of bad or horror stories from people who have bought from them, and the stories are endlessly fraught with dire endings. I agree, that once a purchase is made, the dealer should make him or herself available to the buyer for support should there be need for it post purchasing. There are plenty of wonderful dealers and only a handful of brokers out there that are reliable and trustworthy. It's a caveat warning or caution, I think that's the point Julian is making, buyer be where.
-Angel
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In life you can fall many times, but you're only a failure, if you don't try to get back up!
Evil Canevil

yea julian,i agree with what your said,i just wanted to add something about frantz.my friend works for bushmaster and i was told that frantz is one of their customers.they sell all their snakes as "captive bred" and they seem to always have them,lots of differnt locale type(most of the time almost all the locales)at very good prices.im not saying that frantz doesnt buy real domestic captives,but i do know for a fact that they buy and sell bushmaster farmed as well.even before i was told this i kinda suspected it.its kinda hard to have chondros of all locales all the time at really good prices if youre releying on only captive breeders as a sole supplier.my only gripe is that i have never seen it mentioned in any of their ads that what they are selling are farmed imports.i happen to love bushmaster snakes ,but i think it is important to properly represent what youre selling.one can make the argumant that bushmasters snakes,although are imported ,are still considered captive bred,but we all know what the true meaning of captive bred means.

"but we all know what the true meaning of captive bred means."

actually all snakes that come from Indonesia to Bushmaster are supposed to be CB... We use the term farmed...
but in reality if the importers want to say CB they are not really lieing, they are just not giving the whole truth...

i do agree that their is a fine line between CB and farmed... it does suck that so many brokers dont state the difference... the brokers would probably not have such a bad rep if they were sold as farmed, because in reality you can treat some of the internal parasites, and with that being the case, more snakes would live (if the owner treated them right)

i dunno.......... this has been a discussion that had been going on for years... the brokers are not going to change, it just sucks that we get so many new people in the chondro community and they end up quiting because their snake dies due to their lack of knowledge with the species...

Shiloh
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

I am definetly going to buy from a breeder, I also saw signal herps site, has anyone dealt with them? I only buy captive bred from breeders with pics of sire and dam, even with my frilled dragons, instead of buying imports, I am willing the fork out the extra cash for a little piece of mind.
thanks
tony butler

Rico is a top notch guy. Cant say enough good things about him! I have a chondro from him and would not hesitate to buy another.

Here's something to take note of: Just browse thru all the various "KS" classifieds and note the strong relationship of how the various folks who sell chondros (who actually aren't deadicated chondro breders, but instead simply **sellers**) tend to have the exact same locality type animals all at the same time regardless of where they (the shops) are located...ie--east or west coast. You mean to tell me that all these companies simply have the same local type breeders, all breeding in sychn, all with babies of roughly the same age...and of the same marketed local types? And to add to this...they are all in parallel wit the most recent imported farm raised animals that Bushmasters has recently received. You folks do the math.

Rich Culver

Whenever you purchase a specimen labeled as CB, ask the dealer where exactly the animal was produced in captivity.
Many Chondro pythons are "farmed" within their native country and imported to the U.S., where they are sold by some dealers as CB, which IMHO is a misnomer, as farmed specimens should be described as such, not as CB.
I have received more then a few expired young Chondro pythons, described to those acquiring them as CB, for necropsy. Many of the individuals sending me such informed me the snakes arrived in apparent "great" condition and harboring excellent feeding responses, only to mysteriously turn up expired within the enclosure for no apparent reason within a month or two, sometimes as little as a week or two. Approximately 90% of the time, the cause of death was ESRD (end stage renal disease), normally attributed to the feeding of a dehydrated specimen. It seems most folks acquiring a new Chondro python, or just about any other reptile, are most anxious to ensure their newly acquired charge has a feeding response. Unfortunately, feeding a dehydrated snake is a death sentence, due to reasons I will not elaborate upon, here on the forum, but feel free to contact me directly should you be remotely curious, but most imported specimens, whether WC, CB or farmed, arrive to their new homes dehydrated to some extent extent, though the signs are not always obvious, especially to the novice keeper.
Anyhow, my point is to make certain a specimen listed simply as CB, is indeed a true captive produced specimen, made right here in the good ole U.S.A. and if it is an import, don't be so hasty in watching it eat, but be more inclined to seeing it drink!

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Thanks for the advice and the word, Jeff. Very well documented!

Thanks for the great post Jeff!

Very valuable information that could save future animals lives, and many dollars too!

Thanks for the posts, I am aware of the differences from farmed,CH,CB, and U.S.C.B, All of the animals I own are from professional breeders, My frilleds are from sundial reptiles, and my ball pythons are from Top Shelf, and Bob Clark, The only animals that I own that is not U.S.C.B is a water monitor from pro exotics, they let me know that it was import farmed, but was healthy, feeding and active. Thanks for all of the input from all of you.
thanks
tony butler

I asked if they were captive bred in the U.S. I was told yes. I know what CB imports, and USCB are also. And for that matter, many people find Bushmaster to have some of the finest animals around. I spoke to many of the chondro breeders at the Anaheim show, and they actually speak highly of Bushmaster. Soooo, I think on this, we'll agree to disagree. If (at this point I have no room ) I get another snake, and some of the great friends I've made here have something that appeals to me that I could afford, I'd buy it. I just think it's wrong to cut down all others because they don't fit your criteria of being selectively chondro breeders. I've been into snakes for a while,and I researched a lot before I bought this first one. I made sure that I asked as many questions as I thought I needed to.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1~Green tree python~Tempest
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....

I'm not on one side or the other, regarding where anyone acquires a specimen, as that is a personal decision based upon your own comfort level in dealing with an individual or company and pocket book.
I was simply offering some advice regarding a simple practice which could prevent the unnecessary loss of an animal. So I do not see where we would have to agree to disagree, unless of course you do not feel as though sufficiently hydrating a recently shipped specimen is necessary, even if the transport is an interstate flight, as the air at altitude is quite dry and dehydrates specimens quite rapidly, with Chondros being especially prone to the effects of dehydration.
The rigors a specimen of foreign origins endures is ten fold that of a specimen shipped interstate, with worse case scenario being a specimen imported from a foreign source, held at a distributors facility and shipped to its final destination (prior to being sufficiently hydrated), especially if the specimen has been fed while dehydrated.
I know there are importers who care about the specimens they sale and their reputations, as without such, none of us would have animals to work with, as all captive specimens originated from founding wild collected stock.
Personally, I try to acquire all specimens, for my personal collection, from the actual breeder as such are more likely to provide accurate lineage and I can generally rest assured the specimens I have obtained have not been housed within a facility containing WC animals from various parts of the world, though I quarantine every newly acquired specimen for a minimum of 90 days, regardless of the source, prior to introducing them into my primary facility.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947