Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While out road cruising Tuesday night looking for some snakes after a short downpour of late summer rain in Riverside County I came across this little girl at about 11pm on a paved road!

Now hopefully I can find a male in the next couple of weeks before they are all down.
Thanks for looking.
-Ryan

I'm a little disappointed. I don't know why I was under the impression that those on this forum with a little more experience didn't really go out and capture horned lizards to take home as pets. Remember . . . they don't make good pets?? (That's what we're all told.) I just assumed that most of the guys with more experience leave them in the wild when possible. Perhaps I was wrong. There are SO MANY PEOPLE who have horned lizards who can't take care of them or don't want to . . .wouldn't it be better to just take one of theirs and let the other little guys live out their lives in the wild?

Just a little disappointed.

Babysitter, it's easy to say that, but the fact of the matter is that in my considered opinion, no pet shop or commercial venture should be allowed to sell horned lizards period. Why, if you look at our post below this is just a few of many many people who either capture a horned lizard (most of the time illegally without a permit) or a friend brings one home from somewhere, or Johnny's mom buys a nice littel horny toad for Johnny because the pet shop says they are easy to take care of, and they are not easy to take care of, as you already know the recommended equipment to keep these healthy is going to run you some money, and then we have people argueing about whether they want to feed ants to thier horned lizards, or have never even read up on them and have no idea as to what they are doing. If you look at the posts in the last two years or more you'd see there has been a plathora of poeple with issues and problems with all different types of horned lizards. If you go to our web-site and read our mission statement carefully - this is exactly what Phrynosoma adheres too. We are not saying that anyone should not have a horned lizard--we are saying that the indiscriminant sale of horned lizards by commercial ventures is not a good thing. If you capture a horned lizard, then do it legally and buy a permit or license which ever the case may be. If your keeping a horned lizard then know there is a level of committment in order to take care of these not counting the costs for ants and other equipment. Since you've posted before I guess I don' understand you being upset? When ever we do give advice, it's not because we are pushing our advice on someone, it's because they are asking for advice, and it is often very clear as to whether a person is "in the know" about a horned lizard or not, and most often than not, our concern is the horned lizard and educating people about them. They are not for novices, I would recommend that people that keep them have worked with several differing species and have read up on horned lizards and ready to committ to long term.....there are many people some who post on this forum that do have horned lizards and have went through the legal process and read-up and understand the committment and are doing a good job at keeping horned lizards in captivity. So I may have miss understood what you posted, as it is not clear as to why your upset. If people who have kept them for years and years and have the experience in care and husbandry if they (or we) are saying they are difficult to take care of, what is it that your saying?? I'm not lookig to get anyone upset, but I certianly am not lying when it comes to the husbandry of these animals.
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Never once did I say I was upset. I'm not upset . . .I'm disappointed. There's a big difference between the two. I, under no circumstances, think a person should buy a horned lizard at a pet store. I just think there are SO MANY in the hands of people who can't or don't want to take care of them that instead of plucking one from the wild, a person could simply take one from someone who can't or won't provide the care. That way they're helping THAT particular lizard and they're leaving the other one in the wild. That's all I said. I'm disappointed. I, wrongly I admit, thought you all basically had a "look but leave" attitude. I'm not upset but am just disappointed. I had a certain impression and found out I was wrong. I'm not judging anyone . . . I'm just disappointed. I always so admired those who took pictures and then let them be. I just had the wrong impression. That's it.

Ryan probably did this HL a favor. If it was found on a paved road chances are it would of ended up road kill.

I couldn't disagree with you more about what you said about experienced keepers. Why would anyone want to support the commercial collection of HLs? When you buy HLs from pet stores you are giving collectors incentive to collect more.Any experienced keeper knows commercially collected HLs are HIGHLY stressed and more than likely very skinny (beyond the point of being able to be saved) because they were thrown in a 10 gallon terrarium with 15 other HLs.

It is better to obtain captive bred HLs if you can find them or directly from the wild with the proper license or permit. The HL has a much better chance of survival when the middle men are cut out of the picture. If someone knows how to properly care for a HL it will live a much longer life in captivity. Wild HLs typically only live for 4 years or less. Captive HLs have lived up to 17 years!

I better re-read my post. Apparently I said something that gave you all the impression that I thought people should buy them from pet stores. I come down strongly against that. I DON"T think people should buy them from a pet store. The main people who actually buy them from pet stores (I would assume) are the least experienced ones. I think it border on being unethical for a pet store to sell them knowing how difficult they are to keep alive in captivity and how restrictive their diets are. I'll go re-read and see exactly what I said.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

I just re-read my post and I didn't even mention a pet store or commercially aquiring a HL in any way, shape or form. Not sure how you guys even came to that interpretation.

I do have to say though . . . what you said about captive HL (under the care of an experienced person) can live 17 years. That completely surprised me. I've spoken with a couple different conservative biologists, the reptile gardens, etc and nobody said that. I'm not saying you're wrong. . . I have no idea . . .I'm just saying that I was told the opposite.

Hmmm . . . intersting . . .

Nearly all the sick HLs people post about on this forum are of commercially collected P. platyrhinos. To say experienced people should leave HLs in the wild and take on only ones currently hurting in captivity draws the conclusion you are saying experienced people should only take on the commercially collected HLs? Maybe I missed your point.

Who are you talking with? Do they care for HLs in captivity?If you read some papers by Bertrand Baur and Richard Montanucci you might have a different perspective about HL care in captivity. You can read about the P. mcallii that was kept alive in captivity for 17 years in this paper:

Baur, B. 1986. Longevity of horned lizards of the genus Phrynosoma. Bulletin of the Maryland Herpetological Society 22(3):149-151.

yeah . . . you missed my point. But I'm now just repeating myself so it'll probably be missed again. I'm obviously not communicating well because I've had you guys thinking I was saying you should get one from a pet store (wasn't even close to being a thought of mine) and now you think I said you should take sick ones. I don't think that either. I thought it's best, for the most part, if the ones that need homes could be taken first. Doesn't mean "sick". There have been some very healthy looking ones where the person just got them as a gift and didn't want it or didn't realize all the care involved or couldn't get it to eat and asked if someone would take it. That's what I was referring to.

But . . .I'm getting tired and still have my 7 year old's birthday party to get ready for tomorrow so if the point is still missed . . .I guess it will have to remain that way.

I'm just a little surprised you guys aren't hearing or understanding what I'm actually saying. (not mad, not upset, just surprised)

Babysitter, while I do appreciate your obvoius concern for HL's in general, I do not appreciate being judged.
Take this into consideration, ... before I ever collected my first DHL (legally in fact) I studied HL husbandry issues, requirements, and the species in general for over a year because I understand that certain animals have certain requirements and clearly this type of lizard in particular requires more attention than the average.
Don't get me wrong, I (like you) cringe every time I read a post on this forum about someone finding a Horned Lizard and keeping them as pets. More often than not, I know the near fate that awaits that lizard.
"they don't make good pets??" is a very true statement, however, if someone is willing to educate themselves thouroughly, as well as posess a certain level of compassion, then I do believe that they can make great "pets"! If you do choose to take any animal out of the wild, YOU HAD BETTER BE COMMITED to giving that animal a good life by providing the proper elements to make it's very existance to be good.
I do not like taking animals from people for a simple reason, ..it's hard to find a breeder/hobbiest that you can trust does not have animals in their care with disease/viruses. In my experience, I have seen more animals come from breeders with disease than from the wild.
Remember this,...all animals stemmed from a wild caught animal at one point!
Please don't take this reply as a bash, and remember that my compassion for these lizards, is very high.
I feel that your participation on this forum these last couple of months have very compassionate, and so I hope after reading this reply you will understand me and my intentions a little better.
Thank you for your concern
-Ryan

I didn't judge you . . .not at all. I know you're experienced. I simply said I was disappointed. I was under an assumption that was wrong. THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO CAN"T TAKE CARE OF THESE GUYS . . . .we've seen posts where they asked for someone to take them because they can't deal with the requirements. ALL I WAS SAYING . . .is that I would have thought you guys WITH the experience would rescue those, who are healthy but need a home . . .and let the little wild guys have their freedom. That's all I was saying. I just think it's not the best way to go about getting a horned lizard when there's so many that need rescuing and need a good home. Think of all the eggs Cable has . . .there's no way he's going to be able to keep all of them. He's going to have to find good homes for at least some of them. Why not help him out and let the little guy have his freedom?? That's just my thought.

I am not judging you . . .I don't think badly of you . .. I know you have the experience and dedication to see to it he gets the best care possible . . .I just think there's a better way to get one (and I DON"T mean a pet store)!!!

Oh . . .all my caps are simply me being emphatic and not yelling (thought I better clear THAT up!)

I mean . . . geez, you guys . . .have you never been disappointed in something or someone? Then you should know what I was feeling. Not anger, not judgment, not "upset". Simply disappointment because what I THOUGHT was . . .wasn't.

I can understand how you feel. If only it were easy to take on those that won't be properly cared for. But the chances are, they won't be available for adoption until they are so thin and frail that anyone who really wants an HL won't care to take it because it's chances of survival are so small at that point. And if they do survive there will be weeks, if not months of rehabilitation before it's healty again. That is why those who want a nice healthy horned lizard will tend to get one fresh from the wild.
Nothing wrong with this, as long as they know what they are in for and willing to take on the considerable responsibility.

It's true I won't be able to care for the little ones I have for too long. We are working up a study on diet and plan to run it for at least a year, which is about all the time I have by law.
But after that I do plan to adopt some out. So if there are folks out there that are interested please email me and we can talk about it. It's a good thing when the wild ones can be left alone too.
Thanks
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Phrynosoma.Com

I want to add one more thing that I should have added . . .

One additional concern I had with his original post is this . . .

To be honest . . .there's really only a handful of people who post on here who are really, and I mean truly experienced with HL's. And that would basically be you four and then a few scattered others who pop in now and then. The rest of us are still kind of learning. When one of you post a picture of a HL that you captured . . .it may give people who read it a sense of entitlement (for lack of a better word) or may seem to justify their capture or their desire to capture a HL. With all your experience . . . you know all too well the typical outcome for those HL's. The people may mean well and truly want their lizard to be healthy and live long but the experience, knowledge and absolute dedication to do whatever needs to be done, just isn't quite there yet. What you may mean to be sharing with others who are also experienced HL keepers is being seen by many many people who know little to nothing to some.

It's great when you post pics of your HL's (that's always sweet) and I love seeing photos of when you "look but leave". I think that encourages others to do the same. I just am concerned when I see something that could unintentionally encourage others to go out and get one of those "cute little lizards" . . . only to realize that they're too much work. Keeping HL's is, in my opinion, not for most people. Even many experienced reptile keepers throw their hands up in frustration because "I've kept this and that and have had them for years . . .I get this HL and he wont' eat!!!"

My concern is truly that there are too many HL that are dying very sad deaths. If they could live a long and happy life in captivity, I'd have absolutely no problem with that. Personally, I like the idea of protecting them from becoming someone's lunch. I just don't like all the snatching and dying that seems to happen all too often. So whenever I see a HL that was captured I cringe because I immediately think of the likely outcome.

If it was mainly experienced people on here then I wouldn't be as concerned. But seeing a HL someone experienced has captured makes it seem "okay" to do. And usually, I don't think it is. You have to really know what you're doing. And even then . . it can still be hard.

So . . . not sure if this will come across as I intended. My main concern is for the HL. And NOT wanting most folks to go out and capture one . . . nor do I want them to go out and buy one. For the most part, I personally think it's best,for most people, to just go out and look at them. It just seemed like the photo and post was an endorsement (albeit unintentional) to go out and do the same.

And I truly do think if one can be rescued instead of captured that's a win/win situation. I understand not wanting to take one that is at death's door but there have been many posts of people who got one as a gift and can't take care of it. It's still healthy but they just don't want the work entailed.

Okay . . . this is wayyyyyy too long. I just feel passionate about this. They're so adorable and sweet. It breaks my heart to see so many of them die.

I'm glad some important issues were discussed in this thread. My opinion is that if you are experienced with horned lizards, and the opportunity arises... if there is an animal in need of rescue nearby... please, at least try.

We didnt know, or ask of the condition of our first rescued DHL. All we were told is that they were giving it away, and didnt know what they were doing with it. Drove almost two hours the next day only to find him severely emaciated... we were in shock, saddened, and wondering how he had held on those 5-6 months in their care. But, we still wanted him. We wanted him more than a healthy one at that point. He NEEDED help! We wanted to try. Try anything.

It was my gf who had raised HLs prior. I had seen how healthy, fat, and happy they were in her photos. Some lived 8 years or so, and even then, the eldest had died from injury while outside... not illness. We used her experience and decided to give this little guy a chance. I learned so much along the way, asking questions here, and elsewhere, when there was a new strategy in mind we had never attempted. We suffered along with the sickly one, in tears at times, as he struggled to breathe, to open his eyes, and move. We wondered how anyone could let an animal get to such a condition before asking for help. It was heartbreaking. SO many days we were saying it was a miracle just that he had lived through the night.

It took a lot of time. IT WAS NOT EASY. It was an hourly watch at times, with us losing sleep, money, and taking away time from our daily routines. Yet we never gave up. He finally stabilized with love, patience, time, knowledge, and effort. He is doing much better, even starting to show a bit of being chubby... but we know his fragile body may still be in recovery for months to come. So much damage was brought to him that he did not deserve.

Our second rescue came unexpectedly as well... right as the male was starting to stabilize, we came across another couple who were giving away a baby female that they had recently acquired, yet had no idea of her needs and care. They didnt want her anymore. Luckily, we did. We quarantined her for a bit, making sure she wasnt going to infect the male with anything. But, all in all, she was in better shape than the last. Both are doing considerably well now.

We plan on focusing on these little ones getting the best lives they can, and accepting other rescues that may cross our paths in the future.

I hope others are encouraged to do the same. It's risky on many levels, but I agree that there are those out there who need help desperately. They need someone to RESCUE them, try to give them the love and care they are lacking before it is too late. Some will die, that is the sad fact. But, I know that some still have the will inside them to live, and they can be rehabilitated even when it seems too late. They just need someone to put effort into them living, not standby and put effort into their slow, suffering deaths in improper care... and improper hands.

We're planning on starting some sort of shelter in the very near future, once we get more enclosures built, and increase all of our supplies to accomodate; we want to start a shelter for rescues. Just rescues that no one wants, or knows how to keep. It's slowly starting to come together. And it all started out of nowhere. A few weeks ago, I just wanted to take pictures of them around the area for a friend. Now, here I am in the middle of a large project that may save many lives in the future. Weird how it worked out.

God Bless You and your work with these little guys!!!!!

What a post. In my eyes . . . you're a hero. Sometimes a hero is someone who reaches down to rescue the littliest of God's creations. Like I always say . . . their life may not be like yours or mine . . .but it IS the only one they've got!

This is more than a hobby for you . . .it's a mission. Keep up the good work!

Hey ryan,

Nice little girl. she looks very white compared to the other one you have. What does she look like when fired up? I just got inside from feeding my little male (the female comes out maybe once a week) and he took out 5 honeybees.....I was fairly suprised =).....

As for the concerns noted on this thread, let me just say I'm glad that all of us are here talking about how to better ourselves as conservationists/hobbyists. we are the core for all the people who know less than us. The other thing to remember (in my opinion) is that people will always be fascinated by these little guys. If we aren't here to help them along the way, 100% of the HLs taken from their wild homes will die. we need to stress conservation, especially of the protected species; the more we know and are able to share can only help HLs. Thats what we're here for, right?

just my thoughts.......

Hey ryan shoot me an e-mail.

regards,
-Phil

The new female DHL has adapted well to her new home. She has been taking californicus very readily. She was a little shy at first, but after a day or two she really came alive! Her colors are very light gray. Almost resembling the p. coronatum that I see in my area.

As for the matter of taking HL's from the wild, I completely understand some people's views on this. This subject could be debated forever. There is no correct answer. If you feel that collecting wild animals is wrong, more than likely, nothing will ever change your mind. I do the best I can with the animals in my care and I feel that with the data that I have collected and shared with other less knowledgable folks, I have done my part in educating people who would otherwise be oblivious.

There will always be cause for concern on this subject, and
I will always be open to criticism because I know my intentions are truly genuine.
-Ryan

This thread got me to thinking about all the chameleons, tortoise and beardies that die at the hands of novice keepers. Nobody seems to care much about them.
But then they aren't as cool as horned lizards are they.

Glad to hear your DHL's are working out well. Maybe you'll get some hatchlings next year!
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Phrynosoma.Com

Good point, Cable. Hopefully people in those other forums (for beardies, etc) will try to pass on a torch of knowledge too. I enjoy coming back to this forum mainly due to how most people have become friendly, and open with their ideas, thoughts, and experiences in regards to the little HLs out there.

I never gave my opinion on wild-caught lizards... I tend to go with something I was told when I was a kid "always leave things/people better than how you found it/them" when my gf was younger (she's 22), she saved HLs from being trampled and stoned to death by BOY SCOUTS of all people, when they were out camping at a local state Park that I mentioned to Cable in an email before. She was there years ago visiting her brother who happened to be in the troops, and they witnessed some of the others trying to stone "horny toads" by their campsite.

She and her brother collected the few nearby that they could catch, but sadly, some HLs were brutally killed before they could reach them. (I dont understand how some people think it is "cool" to kill a helpless lizard in such a way.) We recently found out by comparing some old photos that at least one of those horned lizards she saved was a coastal (which are now protected and endangered... with good reason, it seems.) It was a female who lived (almost nine years) on a diet mainly of crane fly larvae, small grasshoppers, wild crickets, pillbugs, tiny beetles, flies, ants, moths, and even a few baby worms. The other HLs saved from stoning may have been coastal too, but it was hard to tell from the pictures she has due to some being a little blurry. The smaller seem to have been desert.

In any case, the lizard Ryan found probably would have been hit by a car from where it was located. He seems to know a lot about HLs and she will probably have a good life in his care. I think those new to herps should stick with an easier animal... one with less demanding needs. They must first do the research and get the proper setup, though. All animals have certain requirements that must be met. No animal should suffer while in our care.

And as for HLs... they are just too fragile. It seems they need people who know what they're doing, and can provide them with a "better" life than how they were found... or else they are best kept in the wild where at least we can presume, and hope, it will be safer for them (meaning in an area without Off-road vehicles, lots of human traffic, etc).

But however acquired... whether wild-caught by herp professionals for study, or those bought from petstores, or those HLs saved by other means, it is always best to share our information with each other for the good of the animal. They should come first, as their lives are now in our hands.

Good post! Debates usually turn into great discussions.

I keep forgetting to make a post about this. The Female DHL Phil gave me in July turned out to be gravid. She laid 4 eggs and on sept 2nd two hatched. One of the other two caved in right away and the last one never hatched.
But two healthy baby's, one male and one female!!!
I'll post a few pics tomorrow!!
-Ryan