Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I was on Midwest Tong's website earlier and came across a "Sawyer's Venom Extraction Kit". As I do field herping on the weekends and even though I have been rather unlucky for finding anything "Hot", in the event that I get tagged unexpectedly by something I didn't see or someone else does...would it be wise to have one of these on hand? They are only like 15.00, and yes I know this is not in place of going to the hospital, but as something that can possibly help lessen the severity of the bite? Would these be recommended to keep on hand in the field or even when keeping privately for that matter?

Thanks,

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

NP

In some cases it can actually do more damage than good, particulary in cytotoxic snakes. The suction isn't really all that powerful enough to draw out any significant quantities of venom unless administered within a few seconds of the bite, which isn't likely to happen in the heat of the moment. After that, you are simply localizing the venom to the bite site, increasing necrosis and tissue damage in the area, as well as increasing your chances of losing the digit, limb, etc.

For neurotoxic snake bites at least, localizing the venom can be a good thing, as it slows the progression of a primarily systemic toxin from spreading throughout the rest of your body. This is why the pressure immobilization bandage is a good idea to have around when working with highly neurotoxic snakes (i.e. mambas).

Just my opinion that they really aren't worth having.

Hi
Dr Sean Bush as well as the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine have done research on these devices and have proven that they are useless in extracting venom, and as all ready mentioned can increase local reactions. I have the pdf of Dr Bush et al results if you wish a copy. Personaly if applied immediately on bites that are predominately neurotoxic, ie certain cobras, mambas, coral snakes etc the suction(750mmhg) maybe able to hold some of the venom in place giving you time to apply a pressure bandage, especially if your alone.

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

Dr. Bush said " Venom extrators just SUCK" Rabies mentions the paper discussing his expermental finding which conclude they cause more damage when used.

Al
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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

in the event that you are quite a distance away from a hospital (field herping, etc) and the drive is approximately 1hr or so? Is there something that should be taken with you to at least help "slow" the effects of the envenomation until you can get proper care at a medical facility? I just like to be prepared for most situations, sorry for all of the questions.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

Chris:

Two things I bring into the field is a GPS & Cellphone. This way if you need help you can call 911 and tell them exactly where you are and the nature of the emergency.

Alternately: Another Dr. Sean Bush paper presented at the Biology of Rattlesnakes symposium was using a pressure bandage (like you use for Elapid bites)to slow the spread of the venom. His study showed that this worked well in prolonging life and could be used in extreame cases like the one you propose. The downside is that is concentrated the venom in the bitten limb causing increased compartment pressures and local distruction. This would be sort of a personal call that whomever was bitten would have to make. Tough call.

Al

A friends Acanthophis laevis , one grumpy snake!!

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

Unfortunately in the USA the majority of venomous snakes can cause severe local reactions foremost swelling followed by necrosis and this could contradict the use of the pressure bandage. If bitten on the arm, by simply applying a sling to keep the arm still and below the heart is the only practical thing to do, apart from satying calm of course. Always herp in pairs because if your bitten theres the possiblity that you may be vomitting, abdomen cramps followed by diarrhoea, impaired vision, fluctuating levels of consciousness etc which could be a problem if your trying to drive.LOL
Pressure bandage and splinting would be ideal for coral snakes and mojave's (hope thats spellt right).

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

I didn't intend to sound repetative, Al posted his reply while I was busy typing at 2 words a minute! I'm going to have to teach myself to type with 2 fingers.

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

No worries John...happens to us all. Dr. Bush's research on the Pressure Bandage was interesting. It will save your life but you may sacrifice the bitten part. I'll see if I have a copy to add to the papers I'll send you.

Chris: Learn about severe allergic reaction and their symptoms. In the US Epi-Pens cost ~$100.00 depending of your heath plan if you have one. At least carry generic childrens benedryl just a few $$ for a good supply.

Just watch where you put you hands and feet and you'll be ok.

Al
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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

Well,

Looks like I just need to keep my eyes open and don't get stupid! I don't have a GPS (well I did until someone saw my truck in my work parking lot and felt they needed it more than I did!) and usually my cell phone service is practically non-existent where I go herping. However, we are usually relatively close to park offices, etc...sooo.. we should probably be ok. Also, I never go alone, so if someone else needs to drive it shouldnt be a problem. I am just trying to make sure that I take all other procautions and have all other equipment that might be necessary.

Thanks for your responses...they were certainly educational!!

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

There's also Epi-pen and benadryl in case of any allergic reactions. There are mentions of it a few threads down.
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Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Since Drosera mentioned it, I know that they are more for allergic reactions, in which I know I am not allergic to bees or anything, but not too sure about venomous snake bites. I also usually have at least two other people with me, so I am not too sure about them either. Perhaps, I should look into Epi-pens just in case?

Thanks,

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

n/p

np
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Happy Herping

Those things are marginally useful on bee stings. I'd think they'd be rather useless for snake bites, especially pit vipers which tend to have relatively long fangs.

I did use the sawyer extractor on a scorpion sting from a yellow deathstalker and for that, it seemed very beneficial. Shallow subcutaneous injection, nearly all venom came out. But I agree that it wouldn't do much for a bite from most venomous snakes.
robbie