Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this little guy in the far southwest corner of Southern Illinois earlier this year. I had assumed it was holbrooki, but after looking at a field guide recently, I am wondering if it's a young nigra, or intergrade holbrooki x nigra. Anyone have a better clue? Either way, I think its a beauty. Small snake (2ft.), big attitude!

thanx for lookin,
Matt

That is just a nigra with some light speckling. I have seen pics of those from southern IL before, but never one that nice. Pretty snake.

You should send a picture to Phil, Will or Scott at blackkingsnake.com.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

One second thought, that is probably showing some speckled influence in SW IL. I would still send it to that website as an intergrade anyway.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

That area is an intergrade zone between Speckled Kings and Black Kings. It is a cool looking snake...

stop with the compliments, you are making me really wish I would have kept it. Thats too far of a drive for me to release it if things didn't go well however.

BTW that pic of the emoryi makes me drool! My girlfriend and I are becoming obsessed with finding one - just for pics.

Thanx

Matt

well IMHO and i have worked with both they(nigra&holbrooki) are the same snake. id say being in s.il its just a speckledee nigra IE if kept up and bred w/another of same locale that some babies would retain/gain speckles into adulthood and some would lose them as they age like nigra further east(that one may loose are gain speckles still as its growing), thats a great locality project imho as i beleive it would yeild both classic phenotypes of this getula that science/man has classified as 2 distinct ssp. regardless of ssp. great looking snake there ,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Neonate nigra have cross bars and chain patterns not speckling. Those nigra that retain pattern as adults do so in the form of a chain pattern and speckling between these cross bars is not evident. I do think these two snakes are very similar though. Phil

ok phil i can see your a splitter and thats cool, but im a lumper and having kept&bred both suppossed ssp.for several years from several localities it is my opinion they are they same snake. and ftr some nigra DO develop speckles into the bar/chain pattern and some holbrooki loose it,i beleive it has to do with range are you really gonna base ssp.status on that??phenotypes? your title says it,,,1 key differance,,,but thats just it there is NO key differance at all in nigra&holbrooki, i remember i was sad when yumensis was DE-classified as califoriae but after working with them i came to that very same conclusion they are the same just patterned differantly as ALL getula are,like FR says the snakes dont know what we people have named/classified them as and neither do they care its only important to us for some inexplicable reason????????,,,,,,thomas davis

Yes Thomas, I am admittedly a splitter when it comes to classification. If the idea behind classification is to establish and define variation throughout a species range I find it a useful tool. No doubt we are dealing with the same species and I would be the first to admit the concept of subspecies is an abstract one to a degree and a number of ssp's have been dropped over the years. I do like the system though and while maybe not perfect in the present case I think there are enough differences between specks and blacks to warrant separate subs. As Frank likes to say, here's something else to consider. In the southeastern part of nigra's range they intergrade with getula. One could make the argument that a nigra is simply a getula that loses the chain pattern as it matures and is thus the same snake. If getula and nigra are the same snake and nigra and holbrooki are the same snake then one could deduce that getula and holbrooki are one and the same. Next thing you know they are all the same lol! Of course they are the same species at the end of the day and the similarities are more than the differences. Phil

QUOTE:I think there are enough differences between specks and blacks to warrant separate subs.ENDQUOTE and what differances are they phil?ground color=same from blackblack to drk brown across their respective ranges surely you couldnt say that what about melanistic? pattern varieation,color? some show white to cream some show deep yellow?pattern specks,bars? def. a locale trait to help with camoflage imho,,,size? they are the same size,,,,scalation?,,same.
please tell me A differance in the ssp. your eastern intergrade is null as easterns get WAY bigger and do not go thru ontogenetic change,and have much bigger heads and bulkier bodies.for those reasons i can see ssp. status between nigra and lgg. bit i just cant see any in nigra and holbrooki i sure dont want to argue phil i just honestly would like to know exactly how you beleive they(nigra&holbrooki) are different and i beleive its holbrooki that should fall from ssp status ,if that means anything,,,,,,thomas davis

Honestly I do believe that nigra and holbrooki are closer than either are with getula. But, using the criteria you used, ground color = black to dark brown, the same could be said for most kingsnakes including getula. I think groud color of black or brown would describe them very well. For that matter, I have seen hundreds and hundreds of nigra and have yet to see one I would describe as brown. I have seen both getula and holbrooki that I would describe as brownish though.

As to the size differences I would agree that getula does get far larger. On the otherhand I think this only applies to those from the southern part of their range such as S.C., Ga and north Fla though. I have asked the size question to people on this forum that were familiar with getula in their northern range such as Va, Md and N.C. and the response I received was overwhelming that the easterns from those more northern areas of their distribution was more on par with what I see with Ky nigra. Essentially a 4' to 5' snake. I know there are notable exceptions with some snakes in captivity but the same applies to nigra. I have a friend that has a nigra thats been in captivity for 10+ years and it is enormous. Wolfs down medium sized rats for example and far exceeds in size anything I have seen in the wild. we should also remember that the biggest holbrooki in the books is a 6' monster that I bet probably was found down in La or southeastern Texas. I think you are dead on about head shape. I do see differences between all though. I see getula as broader and large. nigra as narrower and deeper by proportion and holbrooki somewhat in between.

So to answer your question on how I see nigra and holbrooki being different? I see it like this,
nigra = uniform black with either no trace of pattern dorsally or with VERY faint obscure chain patterning in the form of cross bars. Between the cross bars the scales are black with NO speckling. It is important to note that some populations especially those from lowland populations often retain to a greater or lesser degree the neonate pattern which is cross bars dorsally and some degree of patterning on the sides usually in a vague chain pattern. Ventral coloration is equally marked with black and cream/yellow in a tight pattern.

holbrooki = speckling on scales between cross bars if present. Depending on locality they may have cross bars as well as speckling or lack cross bars all together and be uniformly speckled. Belly scales predominately unpatterned with a few black markings here and there.

These snakes are VERY similar in many ways in morphology as are all kingsnakes to a degree. I don't think we are arguing Thomas. I think its more a matter of how you and I gauge differences and similarities between snakes. I think one thing that enters into the equation is this. Most nigra that have been available on the market appear to be northern Ala stock. I have seen pics of these snakes and in my mind they are vastly different than say a nigra from the Ky knobs for example. If my only frame of reference was from that locale I may have an opinion much the same as yours. Not say that there is anything wrong with those snakes, I love all kings personally and find them all interesting. Phil

ok phil your killin me here QUOTE:
vastly different than say a nigra from the Ky knobs for example. If my only frame of reference was from that locale I may have an opinion much the same as yours. Not say that there is anything wrong with those snakes, I love all kings personally and find them all interesting. Phil

ive never had KY nigra so ya got me ok ive had al,tenn,ohio, but never ky so ya got me they are "special" in ky thats my "frame of referance" for nigra, for holbrooki ive had tx,la,ms,al and no phil there is nothing wrong w/any getula and i to love & personally find all kings intersting as well and FYI black IS a ground color for holbrooki as well its just the very southern ranges that tend to be brownish, it can end with the splitter and the lumper you split and i'll lump,, no hard feelings on a side note im a bob dylan fan if you know the nashville skyline album w/johnny cash there is a song on there called the "the nashville skyline rag" and everytime i here it i think of you and your friend huntin snakes in ky backwoods in overalls,check it out if ya canrunnin from stump to stump,to tin to a/c,,,its meant as a compliment maybe oneday i can make it up ky way and do some stompin w/yall,,,,,,,,,thomas

Its all good with me Thomas. We are all brothers in this big kingsnake fraternity, right? Like the snakes themselves we have more similarities than differences.

"Special" Ky nigra? I think so. Okay, maybe I'm biased but yeah I think they are something special.

The holbrooki down south were the ones I was refering to. But brown none the less?

Thanks for the compliment Thomas. Some folks would look at us and think we were just a couple of hilljacks. Well maybe I am lol! Thankfully some realize that if you spend a LOT of time in the field its best not to wear Izods and polyester slacks. My bud Will is the one with the bibs. He has two degrees and should have his masters soon. He currently is a keeper in the herpaquarium at the Louisville Zoo. Me?, well I'm just an ole snake hunter that decided to contribute what I could to the field of herpetology. Together we have published scientific papers and hold state and federal collecting permits, though these days we don't collect much. We are also on the advisory council for the strategic herp conservation program for Ky. I prefer to wear what the kids call today a "wife beater". Not your standard attire in most places but we are proud of who we are and where we are from so we could care less what folks from somewhere else think of us. If ever up our way by all means let me know. I'll take you on a good old fashioned Ky snake hunt. Phil

Phil! Put that down! That's NOT a nigra or a holbrooki! THAT'S a dang HORRIDUS!!! Absolutely stunning! You guys be careful now, ya' hear?
Todd Hughes

LOL! Todd, yeah I do love those horridus! Magnificent creatures Phil

We are all brothers in this big kingsnake fraternity, right? Like the snakes themselves we have more similarities than differences.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,absolutely couldnt have said it better,,,,,check out the dylan rag,hopefully i can take ya up on some ky stompin oneday,,,,best to leave them canebrakes alone,,,,,thomas

Will do! And let me know if you are ever in the area. Phil

I would consider that snake to most likely be an intergrade nigra x holbrooki though I think it is more holbrooki like in appearence. Based on the pic the belly appears to be predominately yellow with relatively few black markings and on the dorum there are many speckles between the cross bands. These are both traits of holbrooki. As is usually the case intergradient populations off show characteristics of either phenotype to a greater or lesser degree. According to Philip Smiths Illinois herp book the kings in southwestern Illinois are intergrades. In any case that is one good looking kingsnake! Any chance of allowing us to put pics of that snake in our image gallery? Thanks,Phil
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