Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been reading and trying to find out more. so far my search has left me with some big questions.

as we all know there are many things sold that are somewhat less than good for our pets. (sand and heat rocks for example)

some things I am checking on when it comes to these bulbs include:

1) if the outer bulb should break and the inner one still work what levels of harmfull UV will be emited?
2) under what conditions might the bulb leak mercury which is a known toxin?
3) are they safe for home use ? I have seen warnings about the bulbs and that when sold for human use there are FDA mandated warrnings not published on the ones used for reptiles.
4) who makes them? -- some places are selling bulbs for about half the price of the zoomed and active heat ones. but they will not say who makes them or other data about them other than "our web site says this...."
5) many of the claims for these bulbs may be more anacdotal then fact... of course a reptile that had no UVB for a long time will appear to be much healthyer after a few weeks.... but perhaps a florecent UVB tube might have done as well ??
6) many claims are made of zoos and such using them but in what kinds of enclosures? at what distance?

I'm not saying they are *BAD* I am just trying to get the facts before I spend the money and take any risks.

I know folks here have reported some good results and some bulb failures.....

I guess I am just a real *PAIN* for some folks as I tend to dig deep and like the get the facts.....

thanks for any input you all have!

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Below in another thread I stated my feelings on MV bulbs.

You can see pics of the color effects of MV bulbs in my post a few threads down, but this is a copy of what I said:

Chose to quite using them when I discover two facts:

1.) Myth: it improves the color of your dragons - Truth: It puts yellow in the color of your beardies; completely distorting the color. It is an artificial yellow - I do not think there is permanent change (if there is - it would be a yellowing), but it takes some time for a dragon to go completely back to his original color. I am trying to get the yellow out of my dragons and when I viewed them under MV lights I nearly choked when I saw my red dragons turn yellow-orange.

2.) a few necropsies have shown raised levels of mercury in dragons exposed to the lights. Mercury is a poison. Did they get it to some other means? hard to say, but the dragons were raised under the MV bulbs, that much is known for sure.

To me, the risk is not worth it. It's a game of Russian Roulette - will it raise their murcury level or won't it. Will this cigarette give me lung cancer or won't it? There are too many other problems to contend with; why deal with unnecessary risk, if you don't have to?

Now, I may get blasted by those of you who love the color your dragons get under the lights - I expect this. But, I just feel that people should know that there may be a down side to this wonder light, and not to jump in w/o researching thoroughly.

Peace.
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Starlight Specialties
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Thank you, this is the kind of stuff I want to hear about.

it would be interesting to find out what the biology of the yellowing might be.... a dragon "Tan" perhaps?
but if so the long term effect might be skin cancer just like us.

and if it turns them yellow whatdoes it do to us???

Mercury: I can't think of any thing I would normaly have at home that would give a dragon mercury. very interesting.

I wonder if you have thought of having your vet do a blood test to see if your dragons show any in them?

just a thought.

it would be interesting to get say 50 dragons tested and see what comes out say 25 under MV 25 not and see if any corraltion shows up.

thanks again!
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.

Some of my questions are from reading this and other articles by
her.

http://www.anapsid.org/mercuryvapor.html

I don't have the link at hand but I have also read another page I found linked on a thread here that was "Pro MV" in much of what it said.

and I have found few links to details yet on how the bulbs are made but I have found some kinds of MV bulbs used in Tanning systems.

since I can't find any Mfg. names just yet I can't ask them for more data.

I will be contacting ZooMed next, then the ActiveHeat folks.

and I will gladly post any good or bad news I get.
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I am very interested in the source of this since I review so many necropy reports.

when exposed to the sun for te same amount of time as exposed to merc bulbs.

there are many ways dragons can have levels of mercury in the blood. not saying that the bulbs are or are not the cause of the presence of merc but i find it doubtfull.

if one thing the lawyers at zoo med has learned is learn a lesson from philip morris. and the oreo folks. dont put potentaily harmfull stuff out because you have ot pay dearly for it later.

Good luck on finding anything out from zoomed outside of there public records.

but cannot realy know effects or long-term effects until many years go by. And, regardless of how sure they are of a product/medication, it can and will come back and bite them in the rear. Most companies do not spend near enough time testing their products because of the it is not cost effective to do so. The bottom line is making money...and more times than not, they worry about later ...later.
As far as Phillip-Morris goes, regardless of lawsuits, smoking is still a bountiful endevor - so they are still raking in money from that nasty habit.
Unfortunately, humans don't often learn from others mistakes...it's a part of the gamble of living...we tend to like to make mistakes for ourselves...sure that the same thing will not happen to us. Life has to smack most of us in the face before we sit back and take notice.
All I am really saying is that captive dragons have enough problems to contend with: dirty cages, infected feeders, lighting issues, unclean veggies, cage mate aggression, and any number of unforeseeable issues....so, why expose them to an addition risk if it is not necessary. Would you bathe a few inches from a mercury bulb for 12 or more hours a day? Do you think it would harm you? Some risks need to be taken...but does this one?
I am not trying to push my beliefs on anybody - it's a free society (well mostly anyhow), and I won't tell you that you are killing your dragons with those lights, because I don't KNOW that is the case. But, in my opinion, even if someday they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MV bulbs exposure doesn't lead to murcury build up and is 100% safe, I still do not want artificially colored dragons - It is hard to judge how they are feeling if I cannot view them naturally. A color change may denote a health issue, which would be masked by the mv bulb.
Really though, I just people to take the time to research thoroughly before making a decision.
Peace.
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Starlight Specialties
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have you ever given your animals exposure to full sun light for the same duration they where under the MV bulb and what changes in color did you see if yes?

if not i would put my dragons out in the sun for the same duration and see what happens to them if they change color or not. Then if they don’t and where under the sun the same or close to same amount of time with no change then you can start looking towards the bulb.

if i was an animal that lived in the desert i don't think i would have much concern about bathing under a mv all day as there is no way that would expose me to near the amount of sun i would get bathing in the desert all day

as for mercury that remains to be seen. i have mercury test kits.

if some one would like to buy a bulb for me to burn 24 hours a day until it burns out i will put an absorption material under it for a couple months and run a test and see if mercury is present.

I can honestly say that I've had my beardies out in the sun all day and not ever had that kind of color change. That's why it was such a surprise to me to see their color change like it did. I posted pics further down of the color change I'm tlking about, but here are two more. My copmputer is about to crash - going crazy I will restart it then post the pics.
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Starlight Specialties
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for instance if you had your dragons under a bulb for 3 weeks at 12 hours a day and it turned yello have you had your dragons out in the sun 12 hours a day for 3 weeks.

and also looking at your pics your red dragon does have yellow highlights on him in the w/o MV pic

My animals tend to get brighter in the sunlight, but not more yellow. But, it doesn't take weeks to turn yellow under a MV bulb. Sometimes just a few hours. It doesn't last long after they are removed from the MV lamps. Within 24 hours i had an animal that was solid yellow from MV lamps regain her red. Yes, some of the animals had some yellow in them, that is obvious and I expect that yellow to turn more yellow under the lamps, but the red coloring should have stayed red not turn a yellow-orange. I wish I had the money to send you a bulb, so you can use it on your dragons and see what I am talking about.
Some people like the color changes, but I use their color to help judge their health, so I don't want anything to mask their coloring.
Having more computer problems. Not sure what's going on.
Peace
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Starlight Specialties
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Since you have answered other questions since it.... I asked you to site your sources for the necropsies with mercury poisoning. We would like to follow up on the source of those

They were not sites, although I do remember someone else discussing this some time ago. I cannot remember who - and I did not learn from his mistake. I guess I didn't take it seriously. Mercury was found in a couple of my own dragons, so unless it was in their veggies or feeders, the only other option was the light, because I was testing the light out on a few of my dragons for some time. It could have been that I just had a couple of bad bulbs...But I would not risk the chance of getting a bad bulb again.
sorry for the miss.
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Starlight Specialties
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One issue withb your post about desert animals and the bulb:

even in the most severe deserts reptiles *DO NOT* spend all day under direct sunlight.

examples of thermoregulation include use of small bushes, rock leges, caves, burrows, even digging under the sand to hide from mid-day heat.

yes the get a lot more sun and UV then you or I would.... but they do not get 12 hours a day....
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that I gave them no relief from the sun. Of course they had hiding spots, just as they do indoors, to get out of the sun (One is even mostly underground). I even provide them with water pool when they are outside (shallow 1' diameter puppy pan). I would not subject any animal to any type of weather w/o refuge. I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise.
Peace
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Starlight Specialties
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Sorry If I hit reply at the wrong spot, I was directing this at the statement about it beeing ok to use the bulbs as they get lots more light and UV in the desert. so I was pointing out that in the desert the hide to thermoregulate which also moderates the total UV they get
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My white stays white, my gold stays gold and my orange ones stay orange. We notice a more vivid color, not a yellowing. And beleive me, with all the research I have done on yellow fungus, I would notice if they were turning yellow under a light!

Ours have been under them for three years, blood panels are normal, no mercury in their system.

We have had burn out bulbs, but we have never had a broken one, shatters or other problems. You have to handle them correctly, one main this is to not touch the bulb with you hands when putting in in, the oils on your hand will make the bulbs burn out

I used the active heat. I know I am not the only one this "yellowing" has occurred with. I bought two dragons that had a lot of yellow in them via the pics I was sent, when I got them, they had much more orange/red (none of which was apparent int the photos. (in fact the seller was shocked when they saw my pics of the two). I asked them if they were using MV bulbs, and they said that is all they use. I explained how it was making their dragons appear yellow and to try to use uvb tubes for awhile. Low and behold they have and their dragon's true colors are surfacing again. So, maybe it is the "type" of MV bulb, with some being better than others?? Or maybe a few of us out there just happen to have purchased bulbs that were bad?? The pics I took below are very accurate in the color differences I saw in my dragons. With my yellow dragons the color became very "unnatural".
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Starlight Specialties
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take a look this came from: http://www.uvheat.com/Podasky.htm

here is the text, after it my question:
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A Daughter's Delight
23 May 2000

Hello,
Our daughter was in medical treatment for her back for over a year. She worked very hard to follow the doctor's orders that included a very strict diet, as well as many strenuous exercises. As a reward for her dedication to this program, we gave her a Bearded Dragon on January 23rd this year. At first, the Bearded Dragon seemed very calm. He would sit on the top of the log in his cage and would move only during feeding time, eating about five crickets per day. About three months later, we visited New York Reptile (not the original store where we bought our pet). They told us about your lamp and explained that our pet needed the heat and nutrients that are provided by your ACTIVE UVHEAT SELF BALLASTED MERCURY VAPOR LAMP. We purchased a lamp that day. My daughter is delighted to tell you that her Bearded Dragon now eats more than 25 crickets per day, is quite active, in excellent health, and seems very content. Your lamp was certainly worth the money spent. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Howard Podrasky Levittown, NY

P.S. You have my permission to use my letter, to edit it if you like, and use my name.

----------------------------------

Ok my Q to ask all the Mfg. of bulbs is:
so the reptile was not given a correct environment
when given UVB and heat it naturaly improved.

but was this due to the bulb beeing a "Breakthru" or could
standard UV tubes and basking lamps done as well with also some natural sunlight?
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I see no referance to the fact that the animal was kept incorectly. maybe i missed but all i see was that the guy recomended a merc bulb. i did not read anywhere that the cage was lacking a uv tube that the temps where wrong or that the animal didn;t have exposure to natural sun light a few days a week.

don't read into what is not there

here is what I read into the statement:

if the dragon was kept correctly before with proper heat and stabdard light then why was it not eating well and not active??

would adding UVB by itself cause this change?

as far as I know (and please tell me if I am wrong)
the primary things that make a dragon (and most lizards)
become active and have good feeding activity is visible light, UVA and heat. I belive this can be further proven by the numerous reports of lizards that eat well and have MBD due to the lack of UVB and calciumn.

given the (limited) data in the endorsement I belive that this lizard was not warm enough and there fore not active and digesting well.

now granted there could be other factors, but as this was a statment of how much improvemnet the product made and there was no mention of any parasite or other problems and given that the lights do provide heat light and UVA/B it seems far more likely that ither the light was not the factor in the change or that if the light was the key factor then the UVA / visible light and the heat would be far more likly to cause the reptile to eat more and become more active.

I could be wrong.

can anyone give an alternate to what I have just theorized.

and yes it's my theory based on what I have read and seen so far.

but as was said:

if you eliminate the impossible then whatever is left no matter how improbable must be the truth.
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read each of thses links:

http://www.ultimatereptiles.com.au/newProduct.asp?prodid=438

http://www.bigappleherp.com/Reptile_Supplies/Product/Capture_The_Sun_Mercury_Vapor_Bulbs_261800.html

Ok so if I read each of them they *seem* to each claim to have the best bulb. and the UVB is differnt.... thats ok but the fun part is to see the same adcopy about them in serveral places and the same terms....

the last thing is bigapple says at the top of the page:
Manufacturer: Big Apple Herpetological
and near the bottom:

Now on to the important UVA/UVB data...

As we mentioned with the other Mercury Vapor lamp brands, we didn't believe the amazing claims that the manufacturers were claiming about Mercury Vapor bulbs. Then customer after customer started telling us about the miraculous changes their reptiles made once they started using Mercury Vapor lamps. Well, when we start hearing customers praise a product, we listen. This is why we are so pleased to be able to introduce the Big Apple Capture The Sun Mercury Vapor Bulb.

so I wonderd who made the bulb, they say they did and that they did not.

so I emailed them.... I can post a copy of the reply if you want but bottom line is they say they can not list any other data then the web site and will not tell me where they get them etc....

so why not?
why the contradiction about who makes the bulb?

sorry BigAppleHerp but your failure to answer simple questions in an open and honest manner makes me very worried.

they do not seem to care about that; thats not good as far as I am concerned. with thier bulb at $34.95
Active UVHeat Mercury Vapor Lamps at $49.95
and
ZooMed Powersun UV Mercury Vapor Lamp at $44.49

as T-Rex and ZooMed cost more why?
are they buying cheap bulbs that may have dangerous defects?
since they are cheaper and they won't talk to me as a prospective customer I am worried ... and won't buy that bulb for sure.
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in the reptile world. there is alot of this going on in the world

case in point the foggers made for variuos reptiel companies exoterra ect.. are made in one plant and shipped out to the comp. to be put in there boxs.

big apple does the same thing. the fogger they offer on there site is exactly the same as the one made by exo terra and is exatly the same as the one i bought in the mall at the local candels and sandels store for 1/2 the money.

who makes big apples vapor bulbs i don't you can be sure that they don;t manufactor them themselves.

i am also weary of these kinds of products cause i want to know who made the bulb if i can find out that the people who make zoomeds bulbs make big apples than i will buy the big aplle bulb for less money

That all fluorescent lights contain mercury? Ultraviolet light is produced when the gas in fluorescent lights (usually argon or neon) is ionized. Mercury is added because the presence of gaseous mercury greatly increases the ultraviolet light produced and increases the amount of current that can flow through the light. Although not in quite the same amounts, all the standard fluorescent lights have mercury in them as well. I have been using mercury vapor lights for a year and have not found any "yellowing" in my dragons. Pumpkin has been raised exclusively under mercury vapor lights.

Peter

Hmmm....

but tubes are also working at different tempature and such...

and lower watts.... I recalled neon/argon and phospors
but not mercury.

thanks for the info...
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