Reptile & Amphibian Forums

do i need to dust my fuzzy mice? they are frozen from rodentpro.
thanks
jake

Nice monitor!

I dip the rump of thawed mice in Miner-all, but it's probably not necessary.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Thanks they are very food aggressive and I just want to be sure they get the calcium they need and not to much or to little. do you dust every feeding?
thanks
Jake

They will get all the calcium and vitamins from the whole prey items you are feeding them. Since you are giving them whole mice, dusting isn't neccessary. It is mainly used on crickets that supplement their diet.

You will be fine without using supplements on the mice.

Pinkies to fuzzies really don't have much calcium, as their bones are not well developed. In addition, the monitors eating small mice are usually the ones in greatest need of calcium because they are growing babies/juveniles.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Enough calcium to produce the same results as any size of mouse period.
I remember reading that one in some old petstore monitor books, of course like most of their captive husbandry info, its junk.
As a matter of fact, try raising a hatchling on pinkies alone once, it works great, Ive fed them and unsuplemented insects to a few monitors and raised them just fine, they grew just great.
Every pinky Ive ever bought or taken from their mom had a load of moms milk in their stomach, liquid calcium along with lots of other nutrients.
This discussion comes up every few months sometimes every month, this has been discussed many times.

I have practiced raising monitors on pinkies without incident.

I believe in the old days poor husbandry was really to blame, but of course they had to blame something else, so they blamed all things other then themselves. Cheers FR

SHvar,

If you go back and re-read my post, you'll notice I didn't say "it's impossible to have a healthy baby monitor if you only feed pinkies." I simply said that pinkies and fuzzies do not have as high a calcium content as larger mice, and that is a fact. The bones of a pinkie contain more cartilage and less calcium than the bones of older mice. Don't believe me? Research it, or better yet, let a pinkie dry up and note how much of a skeleton they leave behind. Now do the same thing with a larger mouse. Pinkies turn to mush, as I'm sure you know. Again, I'm not disputing that perfectly healthy monitors can be raised on non-additive pinkies--I'm just saying I don't do it that way. My monitors are growing very quickly, and until I see a reason to change, I won't.

I dip pinkies, fuzzies, and quail into miner-all before feeding (as well as all insects). It certainly can't hurt--unless the lizards develop mini-kidney stones.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Hi Jack,(i hope we don't meet on an airplane)
Jack, there is an important part your missing, its not important which has more calicum. The important question is, do pinkies provide enough calicum for a fast growing young monitor? the answer is YES plenty enough. I have raised hundreds of monitors and I am accused of raising them to fast and too large, and I use pinkies without dipping them in anything. My babies also grow up to preform a task, to reproduce like their parents. And with proper(normal husbandry) they do not show any calicum deficincies.

After all, the whole exercise is to prevent calicum problems in young growing varanids. Not measure whom or what has more or less calicum. Isn't that true?

Now why you practice dipping pinkies or mice is the question, it seems to me, its because you are ignorant in raising baby monitors. Please understand, I am not suggesting you have not done it, or don't know how to do it. Its simply that you don't understand whats needed so you add more then necessary so that you may not fail. Thats called shotgunning, You add steps that are not necessary so that you can cover your bum. Well, in this case you do not need to cover your bum. Adding calicum to pinkies is masking other problems that may exsist.

Whats important is the truth, and the truth is, normal healthy pinkies provide more then enough useable calicum. Will adding more calicum hurt, I do not know, but why do something thats not necessary. Also understand, doing something thats not necessary means your wasting your time and energy on something useless.

I can report far better results and progress then anyone who does dip them. So with that in mind, it may harm them. The reason is, the keeper is not experienced enough to understand this problem, so the keeper will most likely not be providing other key and necessary elements of husbandry.

Please understand this, one of the tasks of the experienced here on this forum is to inform and tranfer knowledge to keepers with less experience. If newbies(new varanid keepers) would learn the basics of what is needed, then they surely would not be newbies for very long. Wifestails and misinformation, prolongs their stay as newbies. Instead of learning a progressing in a positive way, they have to overcome poor information(a negative task)

The problem is, the old newbies, keepers who have kept varanids of decades without understanding and resulting success, keep teaching wifestails and false inaccurate information. Jack, you teaching and supporting this wifestail is clearly defining your experience level.

Consider this analogy, rodents have supported many many species of snakes thru many generations, without supplimentation, I may add, With that in mind, pinkies have supported those hundreds of generations of these same snakes when they were babies, again without supplimentation. As with the rodent diet, the question is, is that analogy appliable, the answer, yes, its been applied and successfully used with varanids. Success is the goal and the answer.

If your answer to the original question was, you may add calicum, but its not needed, then I would have no problem with your response. But you dwell on the old wifestail that pinkies are less then adults rodents, this indicates and supports the thought that you believe they need to be supplimented. That you believe that, is telling other newbies that they need to suppliment as well.

With your answer and approach in mind, I feel SHvar and I have no recourse but to correct you. That too is the function of these forums. Sir, please understand, its not my intend to degrade you, or insult you, just correct your misinformation. Thanks FR

"If your answer to the original question was, you may add calicum, but its not needed, then I would have no problem with your response." -FR

Frank, here is my response to the original post, as can be seen on the thread: "I dip the rump of thawed mice in Miner-all, but it's probably not necessary." -Samsun

But, I appreciate the post. I was always weary of feeding pinkies without supplementation, and now I can save a little cash on miner-all. Oh, and why do you call me Jack? My name is Sam. LOL.

-Sam
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Sir, that is not saying its not needed. Which it isn't.

Your post brings up two questions, first, if you are going to disclain your comments, then why post them in the first place, why not simply say, I have no answer. Second, when you start with what you do, it actually suggests that you have reason for what you do, or you would not do it. Dispite your disclaimer.

Analogy, If I said Jack, your a bonehead(i do say things like that)(but only to people I like), then say, OR NOT. And then poll those who read it, I bet all would say, I called you a bonehead. Even thought I said, or not. In reality(such a funny thing) me using this analogy, will be interpitated by many and maybe you, as me again calling you a bonehead. Even thought its simply an analogy. As these are all tricks to stay within the TOS and still inflict damage.

Back to this case, the fact that you answered it, with I do it, reflects that you think its necessary. Thanks FR

Samsun,

You are correct about the calcium content of the pinky/fuzzy skeleton not having the same calcium content; however, SHarv's point about the gut load of milk that they carry and its contents is also correct.

Supplementing a fuzzy or pinky in moderation does no harm, it only benefits unless it is done in excess. Calcification of internal organs would be the only problem and is only a concern when there is a combination of an overdose of vitamin D3 together with excessive calcium.

Cheers,

Michael

Only because it doesn't hurt? haha that makes no sense to me.

Also since you mentioned it "Calcification of internal organs would be the only problem and is only a concern when there is a combination of an overdose of vitamin D3 together with excessive calcium."

This in todays age would probly be easy for those who follow the path of using things not needed. Example If you don't understand something and only use it because "it does no harm". Now lets say someone says oh ok and they combine these methods. They dip the pinkies or fuzzies and other foods into calcium containing Vit. D3. Now they also use a UV Bulb. They then soak there monitors in tubs, spray the cages down constantly and all of the other non needed but wont hurt um methods. think it may start to hurt um?

They spend all of this time doing these things instead of learning or doing more important things and fixing the areas they lack and are trying to make up for.

IMO this is the reason varanid husbandry keeps going around in circles.

JPsShadow,

You may have missed a couple of key points in the post.
1. in moderation: in the context used meaning not in excess- most common usage when these two words are put together.
benefits: something that promotes well being.
“Supplementing a fuzzy or pinky in moderation does no harm, it only benefits unless it is done in excess.”
Let me try explaining this again in simpler terms:
Adding a supplement in moderation (not in excess) to a fuzzy or pinky will not harm the monitor, it only promote its well being. (The last “unless it is done in excess” is omitted to avoid being repetitive).

Why do it?: The better supplements are a combination of those vitamins and minerals that have been recognized as important or essential for the well being and development of reptiles. Mice are an outstanding food source and I do not add supplements to my mice personally, but do add them in their diet (gut loading of crickets prior to being offered).

2. “Calcification of internal organs would be the only problem and is only a concern when there is a combination of an overdose of vitamin D3 together with excessive calcium.”

This was added because I knew there would be someone that brought it up if I did not! This problem occurs in overdoses of Vitamin D3. Please see “moderation” and “not in excess” above. Where it has occurred, it is usually in conjunction of an overdose along with natural sunlight (excess (not moderate amount) of Vitamin D3 added to diet with internal synthesis of Vitamin D3), therefore the warnings given in the most basic of husbandry publications or care sheets of most reptiles. In cases where there is not the overdose of Vitamin D3, excess calcium is simply excreted. Although reptile lighting has come a long way over the years, it hardly compares with the sun (natural sunlight).

Cheers,

Michael

yesterday, I had some conversations with a well known reptile vet. We were discussing X-ray sexing.

Consider, as a breeder of varanids, I have concern with sexing monitors, I also have experience and results.

Richard S. Funk, MA, DVM, in our conversation stemmed for his paper, "Lizard reproductive medicine and surgery", concerning X-ray sexing. (calcified hemepenes)

He found that it was not consistant and mainly occurred on captive older indivduals. Also, it did not appear to occur with wild caught individuals. In our conversation, he asked my opinion(doesn't he know any better) I said, I believe calification in hemipenes is a product or expression of viseral gout. He looked at me and said, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm very good observation and very very possible.

Zoos constantly exhibit reptiles in very open caging, with heating element out of view(distance). The are also required to not fog up the displays, this air movement is cause and effect for zoos having a very high incident of gout. Zoos were also the first to see calified hemepenes. Is this related, I do not know for sure, but there is a trial of evidence leading in this direction.

Its the evidence that leads us, FR

FR,

The calcification of the hemipenis is not what I was referring to, but that is very interesting that this is happening with older captives and not wild caught specimens. Is this also present together with the visceral gout? Just with monitors or with other lizards also? Iguanids and other herbivores are usually more prone to this visceral gout than monitors; the reason is that it has to do primarily with kidney function: herbivores have trouble with too much protein intake resulting in renal (kidney) damage. Another cause of this is something that you appear to be onto: dehydration (is that what you were looking at?). The low humidity demanded by the need to display the animals in a fog-free setting could be contributing to the visceral gout. I assume this is the direction you are looking at. Dehydration is an across the board cause of renal damage, even in us humans. There is still the problem of CB vs. WC and why one is being afflicted and the other is not.

Please post the conclusion of this study and inform us when this paper is released and in what publication. I have never seen a reference to calcification of the hemipenis together with visceral gout. The conclusions made in this study will make interesting reading.

Cheers

Michael

I did and do understand what your original thread was, but I am afraid, I have proved hundreds of times over, that pinkies are great as a starter food for varanids and lots of snakes. So any further conversation is more or less useless.

I am, as we speak, raising numbers of monitors, and have for the last 14 yrs, on pinkies, without incident. It does not matter what has more or less or the same, a quail or dog lips, pinkies plus suitable husbandry, result in healthy growing monitors. Sir, that is science. repeatable tests with repeatable results.

So I added something related. The problem with diet and such is, it often recieves the blame for poor or unsuitable husbandry. As you confirmed, dehydration is cause for many problems such as gout. Its also cause for such deficiencies as absorption of nutrients. dehydration simply does not allow proper digestion.

If you lurked around this forum, its understood the root of most evil is, screen tops. They sir are the devil. As husbandry has progressed, its understood that varanids use much higher temps then previously thought. But using higher temps without experience resulted in many beginers cages becoming Beef jerky machines. That is, high heat, coupled with screen tops, cause unsuitable air movement that severely dehydrates all reptiles, but is exposed with varanids because of higher temps.

I discovered the connection between air movement and gout in 1975 while doing a critique on a reptile department. They had a very high incidences of gout. So I investigated.

Also, I worked in many zoos across the country as an exhibit builder. So I was exposed to many reptile departments. Unfortunately, I rarely built reptile enclosures. I got stuck with large cats and primates, got me!

If your intent is true, your intending to breed monitors, your going to need to grasp a handle, then many handles, one at a time. The problem I see is, you seem to be trying to support what you read with literature. The problem is, try supporting it with actual breeding programs. As the literature more or less stinks(sorry) Of couse, there is some good in most literature, but if you do not have the experience to draw it out, then its effectively useless. May I suggest instead of supporting your theories with literature, try supporting them with results. After all, thats your goal. After all, your goal is to practice something with measureable results.

Please reread, my first followup, I think your confused or I confused you. Our, the vet and I, discussion of gout and calication of hemepenes, was derived from looking at his paper, not in the paper. Thanks FR

What is the average size and weight or mass of a pinky? what the same of an adult mouse?
If you compare a pinkies contents by mass you may find some close or suprising figures to adults. The idea is that the pinky is a smaller animal, much much smaller, therefore the animal eating it needs more than one, many if it applies.
I myself dont use pinkies much as its hard to make use of them with the size of monitors I have, everything I have either eats insects only, occasional fuzzies and pinkies now, adults, jumbos, or larger meals. Soon I may have pinky eaters again.
Consider the liquid calcium content of the pinky mouse, yes it dries up and wont show up the same, but absorbs faster.
Its fine to add occasional supplementation I guess to rodents as Ive done it in the past with no negative effects, but theres a fine point where doing, and over doing occurs, I cant tell you where that point is for a certain size or weight or species of monitor, it may work on one and not on another.
One problem may occur in the quality of the rodents being fed, that can be a problem, depends what they are fed, how well they are fed etc, after all, it all transfers to the babies.

"Pinkies to fuzzies really don't have much calcium, as their bones are not well developed. In addition, the monitors eating small mice are usually the ones in greatest need of calcium because they are growing babies/juveniles."

This was the old wives tail, this was what was commented on.

"Pinkies to fuzzies really don't have much calcium, as their bones are not well developed. In addition, the monitors eating small mice are usually the ones in greatest need of calcium because they are growing babies/juveniles." -SamSun

"This was the old wives tail, this was what was commented on." -SHVar

Pinkies to fuzzies do not have a lot of calcium--that is a true statement. Growing baby/juvi monitors do have the greatest need for calcium (as opposed to adults)--that is a true statement.

Your point, and FR's point, are that pinkies contain ENOUGH calcium for growing/baby monitors. If Frank says so, I believe it.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Please Jack, do not believe it because I say so, only believe it if I can support my statements enough to be true. Please Please allow me to show it to be true and ask questions about what you do not understand.

If you keep asking questions, you will find out, how much I understand and how much I do not. Consider, with the ability to keep and raise and reproduce varanids, I believe I have a good understanding of the basics. Yet I know, and also theorize about advanced problems of doing the same. To summerize

keeping varanids alive is easy and understood.

Breeding of varanids is easy and understood.

Behaviors of varanids are not easy and weakly understood.

Because most work on behavior is theory, I fall to the known, the individual animal is always right, and I am always attempting to interpid those behaviors. With interpitation, these behaviors form sequences, that is, they occur in certain sequences, my task is to line up this behaviors in a successful sequence. If this order resembles the what they actually do in nature is always of question and results in theory.

Which means, I have captive order fairly understood at this point, I have the basics of natural order understood, and there it ends. hopefully there will be tomorrows to learn more about what order is right. FR

"Pinkies to fuzzies really don't have much calcium, as their bones are not well developed. In addition, the monitors eating small mice are usually the ones in greatest need of calcium because they are growing babies/juveniles." -SamSun

"This was the old wives tail, this was what was commented on." -SHVar

Pinkies to fuzzies do not have a lot of calcium compared to larger mice--that is a true statement. Growing baby/juvi monitors do have the greatest need for calcium (as opposed to adults)--that is a true statement.

Your point--and FR's point--is that pinkies contain ENOUGH calcium for growing/baby monitors. If Frank says so, I will believe it because, of any of us, he would know.

Now I just need to know if the same holds true for baby quail with their porous bones and zero milk intake.
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

I am sorry, but this is not about the prey item, its about humans reading labels.

Lets say a mouse has 100% of required calicum(and other poop) and quail contains 50% of required calicum(and above poop). The solution is simple, feed two quail. The question becomes can the individual being fed consume two quail in the required time period, if it cannot, then feed one mouse. problem solved.

That UK fella mentioned that somebody was feeding chicks to burmese pythons and that was wrong. Hmmmmmmm as a child, I raised very successfully many burmese on chicks. The reason was, I was poor and at the time chicks(cockles) were free, by the thousands, from the local hatchery. I quickly learned that feeding one or two chicks was not good for my charges, but fortunately, burmese can consume many many chicks at one setting. So they ate 5 or 6, then up to 50 chicks at a time, then 100 chicks(remember they were free) and grew up very nicely. One must consider, whom is making the rules to follow. In most cases, its rarely to do with the animal in question. FR

Good to know, thanks for the info.

Sam (aka Jack)
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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

- Jack Handey

Too many forums with too many different people and subjects, I goofed up. Again I apologize, FR

.

its not sleeping yet?

When feeding whole prey like that mouse no suppliments are needed. Insects however should be dusted.

nope its not sleeping yet but they do sleep a lot. here is one of the pics

looks like a little one. What a meant by sleep was the hibernation/brumation whatever you want to call it they are supposed to do around this time of year.

I have had them for about a month I did not know they were suppose to be hibernating now because its still hot here in Ala.
i have both male and female. they are around 20in. each.
jake

Hey, you never know, neither or his might not even go through it. Mine stopped feeding about 4 weeks ago, both went to the cold end of the cage (about 68-70 right now, then about 60 later in the year), burrowed together huge slabs of colorado flat rock and have been there since. I won't see them till sometime in Jan.. Then, hopefully something will come out of the breeding. Damn, I'm hoping she produces some eggs this time. They both feed very, very heavily after the brumation, hibernation or whatever you care to call it, so it should support her production. I just have to make more time this year to work with them. I just worked too much and was never home last year. Now I actually have my own prep chef so I can take more time developing desserts and less time actually working! I wish you good luck with yours.

-Jeff

No mine are not sleeping, they are lazy but not in any type of hibernation. They are out to bask for short periods and then off someplace sleeping. If I toss a mouse in they will come out running.

Maybe my cage is not cool enough for them to sleep? I will have a hard time cooling the cage to 60's here in south florida right now.

How old or long do they need to be so they can breed? And what time of the year do they start hibernating? What timps do they start hibernating at?
thanks
Jake

I have not had them for very long either. most of the time I have spent with them has been with the female to get her back in good shape.

They have been known to breed at 13" snout to vent. Hibernation/brumation is around sept. or oct..

When I got my pair I also took over the previous owners website. I will be adding to it as I learn from my pair.
Varanus Griseus

I found your site very helpful!! But how many eggs do they usually lay? and how big are the hatchlings?
thanks
jake

So I am not sure. I also didnt raise these so not sure how small a hatchling is. I have seen one picture of a clutch hatching there were 8 eggs.

I know telling you this, you already know without my info, but, I know you won't, and I wouldn't reccomend trying to drop the temps to encourage them to do anything they aren't ready for or might not even need. In the past two brumations/hibernations??, mine have gone under when it was in the 70's to start with, like 73-75. I don't claim to know, and I will admit that I don't know what causes this to happen, but it appears for some reason that temps, at least in the enclosure aren't a big factor. It isn't a lack of food source either, I have no idea. Humidity?? Mabey. It is very humid here in Illinois in the summer, and very, very dry in the winter. But then again, when Robert had them, they reacted the same way at the same time.

I'm not sure how Robert kept them, and I can say for sure based on your progress with other species, that you are a much better, or at least more attentive keeper than I, so your persistance might yield different and more succesfull results than me. Heck, I hope it does so then I can get off my arse and bring my husbandry up a notch.

I do have a neat video of the mating "dance" if you would like it for your site.

Good luck for sure with these guys!

-Jeff

Send the video to my email. If not for the site I atleast wanna have a look. (haha wait does that sound perverted??)

Yes I know the Il. weather very well I grew up there. I do not plan on dropping any temps.. As of now they are kept like my other monitors until they tell me different. When I was up north my animals acted differently then here. But then again so did I. In winter you can tell the outside weather has changed without leaving your house. I imagine the monitors can pick up on this much better then we can. Will be interesting to see what mine do as it doesn't get cold here and stays humid. Poor things are probly freaking out trying to adjust?? or are they actually having it easier then the wild counterparts? No need to run from the high heat of a dry sun, no need to try and find warmth in a cold desert. Also no need to burrow down to keep humid. hmmm

Thanks for the kind words, hopefully I live up to those expectations.

Oh yeah, I can deffinatly tell the season change from within the house. The dark chocolate stains stop comming off my fingers and it leaves a web like pattern on my had around this time of year. It makes my hands look permanently dirty.

I'll send you the video, it is short as it was taken with a dig camera, but it is neat.

That nile baby is beautiful by the way. So much variations in niles coming on the market lately. Very different colors and patterns. The white, black and yellow on those is absoultly beautiful! Very nice job!

I am deffinatly curious to see what your Griseus do this winter. If they don't go under, that might make room for other activities!? Very interesting to say the least.

-Jeff

N/P
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1 black roughneck
these's lamps make my room hot!!!!!!!!!

np