Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a buddy of mine asked me tonight how much money I would be making off my snakes in 5 yrs. I had to think about that and asked him profit or gross. his responce was both. so then i had to think, best case i could be selling 10-15 pieds @ 1.5k each. 10 citrus ghosts @ $500 each. 10 albinos @ $500 each. 4 pastel ghosts @1.5k each and a couple of pastave, mojave, pastel, hypo mojave and hopefully a hypo pastave. so basically gross around 20-25k if everything works out just right, most snakes feed great, breed in 2.5 yrs, and the market stays as strong as it should. so after intial investment, caging, heat, food, and hours involved it would be about 2k profit, lol. it could work out to be more if I hit odds on the crosses like ralph did on the king pins but I haven't learned the ball python god dance yet and ralph isn't sharing it. then i told him that more than likely I'll break even or loose a few $'s but have a great time doing it. I feel that most people jumping into this business don't realize the big boys are already established and there is no way us small people are going to over take them. I mean nobody is going to take the king of pied title away from pete. or the king of the platty from ralph. or even share the pastel title with greg, mark & kim, or andre. each morph has somebody setting up for super mass production that could flood the market instantly and drop prices by 3/4. think about it, if pete wanted to sell every pied he produced last yr and this yr he could easily afford to drop his price by half. I'm not sure who has the largest albino group but I'm sure someone has 50 breedable het or homo females that could go at any moment. All I can say is if someone is planning on going largely into debt in the dreams of getting rich, please do yourself and the animals a favor and re-evaluate your plans. ok enough of my rant and no i don't think the market is going to crash in the next 5 yrs, i just think the prices are going to adjust to a more resonable level like they do in any free market system. Josh Hutto
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Actually I know of one breeder that has over 150 Homo and het albino adult females.

I like that post of your, its true.

there are people that are in this just for the snakes and a little help with some returns to help pay for their hobby, but there are also some that really just like the money side of it, which is ok but shouldn't be the ONLY reason you get into this.

Over here in europe, we still havent hit the big time with any reptiles, none and we dont have the money to ask crazy prices either, you know with all the high gas prices that stretch back to the stone age lol. but I really hope that people look after their animals properly and not just mass produce them in bad conditions, which wouldnt help them produce anyway, what am i trying to say here?.......enjoy the snakes, if you invene a new crazy morph, then sure go ahead and use it to your advantage, but firstly, look after the animals or else we become "animal dealers" which doesnt sound good and isnt good.

anyway, make some sensce of it and get back to me lol

thanks for reading, now go sooth your headache.

steve

ps. i didn't speel cheek this

pieds at $1500 each.....albinos at $500 each. Maybe I am just not understanding......

No, it is not all about the money, but come on.......pastel ghosts at $1500...I am just not seeing it.

Jason

It doesn't take too long to figure out why prices on some morphs have stayed high. The guys who are really producing them are holding large lots back to artifically hold the price high. Even if you read the forums when these big guys complain about the other big guy, it is normally because he sold a morph for what buyers were willing to pay and hurt the "artificial" market.
I love all these new morphs and have been breeding reps for over a decade. I still think that it is naive (sp?) to think that Pieds or Mojaves will still be worth $2000 in 3-5 years. I saw one breeder with close to 180 pieds and another with over 70 pieds. That doesn't include the 100's to 1000's of pied hets that were also produced and will be producing in 2 yrs.
This BP phenomenon has brought a few new people into herptaculture, but it has not doubled the potetntial buyers. Not bya long shot. I get a kick out of forum poster who say things like "250 million potential buyers for Ball Pythons in the US". The fact is we are still considered an excentric group of people. I bet that as equally many people that come into the hobby also leave it each year.
If you look at who really is breeding and buying ball pythons. It is mainly people whom already were deeply intrenched in reptiles and herptaculture business. Instead of breeding all kinds of pythons, lizards or tortoises, they are currently breeding BP's.
At the end of the day what we you have for sale in the BP biz is a "ball python". Although the new morphs are very very cool. I can remember when you couldn't give CBB BP away for $25 at shows. The people who passed up those $25 dollar babies are the same people, who will pass on morphs until they cost around the $200 range. These are the people that the BP biz will be dependant upon in the next 10 years. Do you remember when corn morphs were worth $1000 each or more. It was not all that long ago. I think the most expesive morph now is $100-$200 and it is really only "breeders buying from breeders" in that market. As with everything there is always the exception to the rule. Just my opinion. Do what you like, not what someone is telling you is going to make you rich.

Somebody above nailed the whole thing though...if you're going to do this, you have to do this because you love the animals and enjoy breeding them. If you get into it to get rich, it's not gonna work. If done right, you can be a full time breeder and make a comfortable living...but unless you get lucky and get the first of a new morph, you're not gonna strike it rich. It's the reason why I won't by pastels...I don't like them. Yea, they'll make me money...but I'm not in this just for the money. Albinos, Pieds, Axanthics I like...hence why I'm trying to het them out...mainly because I want one for my collection...the $ is an added bonus.

And the BP market coming down in price is another reason not to just do ALL BPs, even if you aren't flooding the market. If BPs are the only snake you like...fine, but to have 50 or 150 females of the same morph? I've been growing a very nice collection, and plan to keep it that way. I love snakes in general, and the wide selection means I'll have something for everybody.

Chris

ps I have no clue what I just typed
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0.2.0 Grey Rats-Lauren, Avril
1.2.0 Black Rats- Robert, Cady, Kylie
1.2.0 Albino FL Kings-Nick, Jessica, Ashley
1.1.0 Crimson Corns-Kane, Ruby
0.1.0 Het-Crimson Corns-Lola
0.1.0 White-Sided/Pos Het Albino Black Rat-Lita
1.0.0 Albino White-sided Black Rat-Rey
0.1.0 Albino/Het White-sided Black Rat-Stacey
1.2.0 Creamsicle Corns-Vince, Trish, Torrie
0.1.0 Fl King-Bonnie
1.0.1 Biak GTP-Brandon, Aru GTP-Orochimaru
1.0.0 Flame X Blood Bearded-Ruff
1.4.0 Ball Pythons-Kritsy, Gretchen, Alexis, 100% het for albino balls- Naruto, Hinata
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor-Izzy

NP
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

other than possibly a granite that was bought as a normal is in this for the money to an extent.

Nobody buys a het pied pair or het albino pair without the intentions of breeding and profiting. Think about it, if they say they have them because they love the snakes well why on earth would they buy hets for 100 times the cost of a normal.

Even pastels aren't in the price range for normal pet owners.

If you own a spider, mojave, cinny, albino, axanthic, clown, pied, or any other morph you are in it for the money.
NOBODY(except Michael Jackson and Oprah) owns a 5000 dollar snake as a pet because they love them.

Simply put, most of the people that will say it's not for the money either failed in an attempt to make money, or they don't have the money to start out.

Ask Ralph Davis, or Bob Clark, or any big breeder if they would take care of all their snakes if it didn't make them money and they had to work a full time job as well to support their family and their collection.

Cole Maas

I don't necessarily agree. I think a lot of people are in it for the same reason I am: to afford the morphs. I'm not about drop $100K to get a collection of nice morphs, but if I invest in $10K now I could probably trade and sell some to afford to buy the ones I want. If I come out a little ahead to cover my costs for heating and food, then all the better. Of course there are those people that see nothing but the dollar signs, but I think a lot of them will be in for a rude awakening in a few years.

Grant it that there are a lot of people that pay the big dollars for a morph with every intention of breeding it till the cows come home and make money off of it - but not everyone.

There are also a lot of people that pick up hets because it's the only affordable way to get to that pied or albino that otherwise they would never be able to afford. They don't have any intentions of breeding past getting that pretty snake for their collection.

My unofficial marketing research that I did prior to investing my time and money into this endeavor tells me that the average ball enthusiast is willing to pay about on average $500 (plus or minus a couple hundred) for a morph - some even willing to go as high as $1000 but past that breeding was necessary either because they would buy hets and breed or to offset the purchase.

Yes - people do own $5000 snakes just for pets - I know lots of people that have pieds sitting in there living room with no intentions of ever breeding them. But people dont generally buy $25000 snakes for pets.

Part of the whole breeding thing is not just to see how much you can produce and sell - but also see what you can do with the morphs - look how long people have been waiting for pied mixes and clown mixes and spider mixes -etc. There is a certain joy and satisfaction that goes beyond the dollar!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Anyone that has a pied in their living room as a pet is loaded to begin with and doesn't need to make any money breeding.

There's nothing wrong with trying to make money breeding snakes. Who doesn't have the dream of sleeping in late, feeding a few snakes, and working with animals they love out of their own home every day?

That being said, dropping your life savings into this business, quitting your day job, and hoping to get rich is a HUGE gamble.

But if you ask me anybody that owns a pastel or higher morph and doesn't have hopes of making some money is lying. If the people had a good amount of money to start with and maybe bought a spider or something along those lines they still probably would like to make some money because most people in the upper class are stingy with their expenses and that's what allows them to get into the upper class and stay there.

It's just good to be able to cover your losses. For example, when I bought my pastel and the 2.6 normals I sold all the normals for 60 dollars a piece locally. Now the money out of pocket expense on the pastel is down to 70 dollars. If a snake you have 70 dollars into dies or something goes wrong it's a lot easier to recover from than a 500 dollar snake.

OK this got really long so I'll wrap it up:
Not many people would buy say a 5k mojave if they knew all they would do is put money into it for feeding etc and that's it.
You have to have the hopes or fantasies of making something in order to spend that kind of money in the first place.

Cole Maas

If you are suggesting that people like let's say, a Pied, and cannot afford one, so they buy a het pair to make their own Pied, I just do not buy that. I think if ANYONE buys a snake that costs more than $500, they are in to breed and make money off of that snake.

I've met a few "usedcar salesman" breeders at the shows.. But to judge all enthusiasts by these is just not fair.
( or accurate)
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

I've met people at shows that work three seperate jobs and breed snakes on top of all that. Someone working 3 jobs doesn't have time for that unless they are getting something out of it($$$, not just personal enjoyment).

I just think that a lot of the people will say "they aren't in it for the money", when really, that's their main goal.

I know a bunch of people that like gambling. It seems they never come out on top, but if it weren't for the fact that they could, would they go gambling?

How many customers would a casino have if there were never any pay-outs? NONE. How many morph owners would have paid more than 500 for a snake they couldn't get a return off? I might be overboard in saying none but it's certainly not many.

Cole Maas

For some this may be true but not for all.

I bought my Pastel female as a pet... had intended on actually buying a male, but fell in love at a show.
Spent the equivilant of what I would have paid for a purebred dog.( with a lot less hassel)
Nobody warned me that ball pythons were so addictive ( as gambling is to many)
I bought a pair of het pieds, because it was less expensive than paying for the divorce if I spent 5-7k on one animal.
I have an established career and a bit of extra cash to finance my new hobby. I can't imagine that my scenaio is in anyway exceptional.
I hope to breed my animals some day. When I think about the hatchlings... I see the possibilities of getting more morphs... not dollar signs.
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

I'm not saying it's a take the money and run situation. Hatchlings to you may mean more morphs, but think about it. You'll either have to sell them and buy the morphs or trade them.
When you wind up with a lesser or another high end morph that has a high cash value what difference is there between you and the guy that just sells out? He has the cash, you have the snake. You most likely made the better decision because you can't put all your eggs in one basket. A more expensive morph equals more expensive offspring and I'm sure you hope that one day you will be able to own whatever morph you please and fund it with the offspring of your breedings.

The world is run by money.

Cole Maas

The number one reason people are in this IS or WAS at one point, their interest in the animals.. And the number two reason would be what someone said previously, you don't purchase a 5k+ animal because you "LOVE SNAKES"... If you loved snakes in general, you'd be happy with the $25 dollar unsexed ball python, if you were just breeding to help overturn the costs of owning an expensive animal you wouldn't need to sell your 5k dollar snake's babies for 4k each out of 5 litters.. To recover the cost of your snake you could breed it ONE time, sell the offspring for 1/4 of the price you paid for yours and you would be paid back in FULL for caging, electric, feeders, substrate, etc... All of these people claiming they're not in it for the money, I'm still waiting to see those $300 albinos, $1200 pieds, $800 spiders, etc.. Like I said, to stay active in this you obviously have to be INTERESTED in snakes, you can't fake that... NOW, does the money part OVERPOWER people?? FOR SURE!! I think if you keep a clear mind, remember why/how you got into this(crazy and out of this world snakes) and be honest, it's OK to make a living off of them.. If you plan on making money, don't lose your interest or become numb, that tends to make people unethical.. Just my scattered .02..
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

In this capitalistic society, one would be hardpressed to remove the money influence from anything. ...Can't tell you how many sermons I've recently sat though on tithing for example.
There was a judgement/generalization made that anyone spending over 500$ is only interested in exploiting these beautiful animals.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I must dispute that this is not the "Intention" of every ball python owner who buys morphs, to get rich quick.
Most truly are mezmarized by the aesthetics of the morphs ( and pretty normals for that matter). Not to mention the creative possibilites of finding something new.
There are plenty of 'big breeders' who after many years of breeding, still feel as much enthusiasm as they did with their first pipping egg.
500$ in 2005 is not a tremendous amount of money... well worth bringing PBJ from home instead of buying lunch for a couple of months, to save for a beautiful ball python
MHO

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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

Very valid point - to assume that every snake over $500 is purchased only for explointation and reproduciton is a bit narrow minded. We are far from being rich but for me spending $500 on a snake - morph or just a "pretty normal" is not a big deal - I like pretty snakes. For someone like my friend Matt $5000 is a weekend in Vegas and less than a new boat or harley which he gets every year - not really a big deal - he's got two pieds an albino and some normals - my guess is he probably couldn't tell you the sex of any of them. My husband did not blink an eye at spending that kind of money on a guitar or plasma TV but hesitates to spend it on a snake (both the plasma tv and the guitar are out in his studio and only get used once in a while). Perspective is everything.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer