Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've seen others mention windy night = more snakes, and it got me to thinking:

Are the snakes stimulated by the breeze, perhaps by odors wafting past, or is it more along the lines of windier conditions providing more "background noise," thereby masking other sounds such as human footsteps/vehicles approaching, making the snakes less likely to seek cover at our approach?

I think it'd be interesting to do a simple experiment with captive snakes, the control group kept in a "breezeless" enclosure, and the test group set up with a constant breeze courtesy of a small fan.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Most of those who've reported luck with the wind are those who hunt in the Langtry/Del Rio blairs country. I've spent 95% of my time in the Big Bend country and do not share their experiences there. On the contrary, I've had my best luck with alterna on still hot nights there after a rain. However, I think there's a huge difference between field collecting and finding them on the roads. I've field collected alterna (and cealanops, Trimorphodon, subocs, retic geckos, etc) during times when nothing was moving on the roads. I think many of these species may be out, but not very active on nights when conditions are such that they do not want to be cruising longer distances and end up on the roads. I'm not sure what that means with those found on the cuts but I'm curious what others think. --Henry W.

The wind _may_ just a be symptom of more favorable conditions, for example lower or dropping pressure, and along wiyth it increased humidity. The wind in Val Verde is prevailing from the SE, out of the gulf. Generally the windless nights are the ones dominated by high pressure (hot dry air). And so coincidently (or maybe additionally) the good nights are the ones with lower or dropping pressure and the wind carrying humidity from the gulf.

As Henry reports the best nights in the Bend region are the humid nights - imagine that!

Forky

>>The wind _may_ just a be symptom of more favorable conditions, for example lower or dropping pressure, and along wiyth it increased humidity.

Ah, yes. I find it harder to raise/lower the ambient pressure for my captives than simply raising/lowering the humidity, though. I wasn't even thinking along the lines of 'where the wind is coming from.' But yes, high pressure over W TX means clockwise rotation/wind coming in from Rockies/Great Plains, whereas a low sitting in the same spot would be sucking up sweet, sweet Gulf moisture.

So, I too would presuppose that the pressure itself, as well as the wind, may not be a causative factor in snake movement so much as a contributor to said factor (increased humidity).

P.S. Archeo, I'll take a couple of offspring from your "field-collected retics"
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

When I lived in El Paso, we also hated windy nights. Of course, El Paso is a very windy area so the still nights were the exception. In fact, there were often warm nights in late April that looked like they might be productive, but the wind was usually whipping across the desert.

The only time wind was good was when it was a cool moist gust front in front of an impending thundershower. Otherwise you wanted a still night. Humid was good, although El Paso isn't famous for its humid nights - LOL.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

Chris, I never collected the retic geckos I found. Are they being bred in captivity? I photographed several of them in the wild but that was all. It would have been fun to have raised the babies from a gravid female I found one night but I did not have the facility to keep them and they were protected at the time so I never picked them up. They are a real kick to see night lighting, though. They are extremely agile on the rocks. And they are not restricted to the moist canyons like it says in the literature. I've seen two atop desert mesas far from water. --Henry W.

I never collected the retic geckos I found.

I didn't figure you did, but you lumped them in with your collecting statement.

They're protected still--you can't collect them legally! It sounds like they're more common than once thought, but I think they'll remain protected due to their limited range.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Sorry, I guess this is a little off topic but it is about herps in the Bend. Yes, I suppose retics will stay protected but I don't really see the need. It is true that they are most abundant in the canyons with springs that feed into the Rio Grande (as is true of piktigaster in the Bend area), but they are widespread enough and secretive enough so as to make them virtually impossible to overcollect across their range. My opinion, anyway. Piktigaster is also more widespread than some say but that's a species I think should be protected because it is possible to overcollect what are, I think, relatively isolated relic populations. There are several Bend populations that were heavily overcollected in the 70s -- it would be interesting to see if they are still viable. Can they still be found in the locality west of Lajitas (those of you who know it will know where I mean - I don't want to give out the locality in general)?

I'm not a collector anymore so I have no vested interest here -- I just try to be realistic. Same for Trimorphodon. Protecting them seems really rediculous. Oh well, I shouldn't rant on about this...I'm sure its been endlessly debated over the years I was out of touch! -- Henry W.

Yes, I suppose retics will stay protected but I don't really see the need.

I think it'd be interesting to let some folks work with them, establish captive hardiness and husbandry techniques, and put them on a limited-take status. Shoot, look at the progress graybands made due to the herp hobbyists. While they're more widespread range-wise, they followed the same pattern of "limited distribution, let's put them off-limits" management until a proven captive track record coupled with more range and natural history information are brought to bear.

I'm a Coleonyx fan myself and I think both switaki and reticulatus would be good candidates for captive propagation with minimal collecting pressure exerted on existing populations (and switaki are hard enough to find in SoCal as it is, not that I've had any success!). But I digress.

Heck, I haven't even found a grayband yet after several trips to the region. I hang around this forum so I can daydream, plus I love the Trans-Pecos in general, as others here have echoed.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I think wind itself my be one of the factors that bring alterna
out. When the wind is blowing, predators will definitely have
greater difficulty locating them. The effectiveness of various senses is less during wind. The snake's movement is masked by the movement of the vegetation. Any sound the snake makes (falling pebbles) will be more difficult to hear. Scents the alterna leaves behind will more quickly dissipate.

which is exactly why I prefaced my remarks with the word _may_. It would be nice if we knew exactly what makes em move and where they will be..... no I take that back, part of the thrill of finding an alterna is the degree of difficulty and uncertainty. Even though we have a good idea when and where, it never is a "sure thing", even at the honey holes.

Forky

>>I think wind itself my be one of the factors that bring alterna
>>out. When the wind is blowing, predators will definitely have
>>greater difficulty locating them. The effectiveness of various senses is less during wind. The snake's movement is masked by the movement of the vegetation. Any sound the snake makes (falling pebbles) will be more difficult to hear. Scents the alterna leaves behind will more quickly dissipate.

C'mon cool front!!!
Todd Hughes

my experiences are mostly contrary to yours - wind is your friend for alterna regardless of where you are. Of the 9 I caught this year, only one was on a windless night - and part of that was because I was down in a canyon (Limpia) in an area where what little breeze was blowing was possibly blocked.

I think wind means weather - pressure changes, etc - which are one of the triggers that make snakes move. In other words, not the wind itself, but that the conditions that make it windy are the conditions that get snakes moving (pressure, etc).

In fact, I hate a still night - usually, when its completely still, its muggy and "dead" - all of my Gaps (5), my Xmas (1) and all of my Rivers (6) were on breezy nights, as were all of my Alpines (4) and all but one of my Davis (3 out of 4).

In fact, I can think of more Eastern Blairs-type alterna that I've caught on still nights than westerns ones!

Troy

I'm sure Troy's caught way more than I have so my experiences are anecdotal at best. I do agree with the theory that the pressure changes associated with fronts are the stimulus to get them moving. Its funny, though...I associate windy nights with Hyspiglena, glossy snakes, and atrox. That said, thinking about it, its the windy nights without a nice front bringing rain that I am thinking of. When there's a mild breeze and a front, I do anticipate a good night. Makes me want to get back to the Bend to do some more testing.... --Henry W.

I can remember back in the 80's thru 90's observing the actions of the many alterna hunters that congregated in Del Rio every spring. Most of them spent the entire day in their motel rooms with their eyes and ears glued to the weather channel. I cannot remember how many of them would ask me what I thought about the conditions. Was the barometer reading better when it was high or low, was the wind right, was the humidity high enough, how is the moon phase, is the rain going to hurt how the snakes move, or is the temperature to high or low? Usually my response to them was "what difference does it make, you have spent $, taken the time to drive out here, does it really make a difference or are you going to go out looking anyway?" You know I do not think that I ever had a single person say to me "maybe you are right, the conditions do not seem right, maybe I will just stay in the room tonite, thanks." Although I cannot imagine why????

I say the bottom line is that alterna have been caught in just about any weather condition or moon phase phase you can think of, so as Nike would say "Just Do It".

It is good to know that some things do not change, maybe a new decade but still the same questions and more than likely still the same answers. LOL

ECT

BTW there's a cold front coming in this weekend.
Do you think it will shut them down? I've been watching
the weather channel and can't decide if I should burn $300 in gas or not?? Think it will be good at higher elevations or too durn cold? Maybe I should go and stick to the lower elevations by the River, like RR, Gap, or my Ranch?? Or maybe I should just stay home and save the $$?? Or maybe I go go cruising mornings and evenings for crepuscular species??? I just can't decide...... lol

Call me...

Forks

You're absolutely right, Joe. We don't go for the snakes, we go for the game. Who cares what the weather is if we can get away, see the desert sky, feel the thrill of seeing that black serpentine line on the rocks or blacktop. I always feel like I'm going home when I hit the edge of the Christmas Mountains coming down 118. -- Henry W.

Really the only time watching the weather channel is important is when:

a) you're planning a trip - I check weather before I go for about a week or so in order to pick the best area - it wouldn't make sense to go to the River when its 100 degrees at midnight, a month without rain while in the Davis, its 78 and rained 3 days out of the past 5

b) you're trying to decide if you're going to pack up and go to another area (for the same reasons as above)

However, if you're already locked in on a place (like you've booked the Motel 6 in Del Rio for a week) you're gonna go out and hunt, regardless of what the weather channel says. At that point, the only reason to watch is along the lines of it being a "spectator sport"!

Troy

Usually my response to them was "what difference does it make, you have spent $, taken the time to drive out here, does it really make a difference or are you going to go out looking anyway?" You know I do not think that I ever had a single person say to me "maybe you are right, the conditions do not seem right, maybe I will just stay in the room tonite, thanks."

Yep! Lately my itineraries are dictated less by what the weather outlook is than by what my spousal unit and child have up their sleeve for the weekend.

I take what I can get and if I'm meant to find snakes, then they'll be there regardless of temps, wind, moon phase, etc.

Still, I seem to have recalled a consensus that more wind = more snakes generally speaking, but then again, there's hardly a night I've searched that HASN'T had a decent breeze, and the tallies are quite variable.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Windy nights usually means no snakes because their tongues stick to the side of their face,LOL just joking. I've never had good luck on windy nights. Kevin

I keep telling you Kevin you ain't gonna catch any alterna in Colorado bro!

Wayne

Yes,but I can live vicariously through the Gray-Banded Forum untill I can save enough money to get down to paradise. Kevin

I can certainly understand that!

That's what I did!
Todd Hughes