Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Everyone:

I've noticed some really ridiculus prices for "common hots" on the classified forum as well as other places including dealer websites. I could site one or two examples but I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. What do you think?

Al

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If you give somebody a match and they can keep warm for a while.
If you light them on fire, They will be warm for the rest of their life.

I definately agree. Seems like not many people are selling much judging by it's the same snakes over and over again on the classifieds. I mean I see the common, run of the mill Puff adders for $75!. I mean, god bless America if you can get $75 for a Puff adder these days. Then one dealer has had the same 02' WA Gaboon for sale since 2002 and the price has actually increased in time rather decreasing. I guess its based on what they feel they can get for the snakes.

Some of the prices are just ridiculous, like the $1000 gaboon viper. What's even better are the light phases of certain snakes that are sold as "hypo" or some garbage, and they fetch a price 20 times what the snake really should be. You know the old saying, there's a sucker born every day.

I agree... I saw a king cobra offered here for $2500. That's absurd. Someone else was selling white lipped vipers for $250 each! T. Albolabris should go for about $35 each.

Man, even $35 is a stretch =]

I would have to agree more with Mr. Carmichael's opinion of this thread. I think 35$ is a bit rediculous. I would certainly be willing to pay $250 for a healthy c.b.b T. albolabris especially if it is a baby eating little mice.

I think supply and demand really should not be a huge factor in this industry unless you are talking ball pythons. They have their special niche.

In my opinion it is absolutely rediculous afican rock pythons are a max of 50$ if healthy and c.b.b. But this surely shows the love of snakes the breeders have. A clutch of those could not even come close to the cost of feeding and housing the adults used to make them. (now elapid keepers and their food cost using african rocks...you should be stuck finding friends willing to help keep you out with a discount *free* after all, it should always be about snakes anyway)

I actually find it a tad offensive we have such a low value on some of these herps. Thinking $250 is too much for an amazing animal I feel is a bit crazy.

"I actually find it a tad offensive we have such a low value on some of these herps. Thinking $250 is too much for an amazing animal I feel is a bit crazy."

I agree completely here. Some people buy reptiles for under $100 and it makes them think they are disposable. Kinda like how the Green Iguana is like $15 at pet stores. People just fork over $15 bucks and don't want to spend $200 on supplies for it. I don't think there should be a snake under $100 or definately not under $50, but thats just me!

Jason

Well since everybody seems to be mentioning an example I will too. The one that set me off is the Cerastes cerastes, WC for $250.00....geeze...hard to believe!! I thought $85 was too much.

Al
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If you give somebody a match and they can keep warm for a while.
If you light them on fire, They will be warm for the rest of their life.

I've seen some for prices that are marked up 400%. Being that I imported them and know what I paid, I think some people are just trying to pay the rent.

What's even funnier is when I have gotten calls from others appearing to be "Afficionados" and talk as if their animals are the cream of the crop. Here are people trying to tell me their animals that were passed around or bred back to siblings several times, are superior to CB babies from locale specific WC adults? Puh-leaseeeeee!

AND...I was quite amused at the postings of Costa Rican boas for sale at Daytona that were "PICK OF THE LITTER" LOL!! These snakes came into the country 3 weeks AFTER i had imported a dozen boas for myself and a friend!!! GIMME A BREAK, and then the ads listed them for sale WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Above the dealer cost.

Beware what you pay and don't be a sucker. Remember, snakes are a luxury item....NOT a necessity!

Are you speaking of the costa rican boas that Siegal had?
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

Those were some of them, yeah, though there were others advertising them.

I had no intention of selling any of mine, but then I had a reality check and realized I didn't need 6 boas. I kept a pair and sold 2 pair for far less than they were asking. Am I nuts? Well, maybe in others eyes, but my feeling has always been, in typical retail markets, you mark things up maybe 100%, though in my years of watching my father work in the firearms/sporting goods business, firearms NEVER had that kind of mark up. Fishing tackle--maybe.

MCH

x

I, too, find it pretty amusing....actually, quite hilarious. Now, I don't mind paying a premium buck for a show quality animal but how many truly competent and willing buyers are there for a brood of 75 puff adders selling at $75? Don't get me wrong; puffs are one of the most beautiful snakes in my opinion but due to their "hotness" most people shouldn't keep them. And, yes, you do see the EXACT same adds over and over and over and over. Why? Because its a flooded market, because there are restrictive laws being passed, and because there are not enough competent keepers of venomous who know what the heck they are doing. And, I have found that most people in the herp business (buyers) are just downright CHEAPO. I would rather pay twice as much for an established import or c.b.b. individual. Instead, we usually rush into getting the best "deal" only to get a heavily parasitized animal that will end up costing us much more in the end in veterinary care (if someone is even willing to go that far). The same can be told for other harmless herps such as chondros. I breed eastern indigo snakes and the prices have stayed up on then and deservedly so; there are few breeders, they are in high demand, and not the easiest animals to breed with any degree of success.

With the flood of venomous captive breeding accompanied by the rampant passing of restrictive laws banning the keeping of venomous, I am afraid we are flooding the market with a lot of animals that very few people will ever get to keep (and most shouldn't keep hots anyway). I would rather focus my breeding efforts on non venomous species, or, venomous species where conservation is helping to save them. That doesn't mean I am against the captive breeding of venomous herps in general; but come on folks, just how many competent homes are there for monocled cobras, green mambas, and other really hot species.

There's absolutely NO point to this thread other than to share a few thougths.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Hi Everyone:
>>
>>I've noticed some really ridiculus prices for "common hots" on the classified forum as well as other places including dealer websites. I could site one or two examples but I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. What do you think?
>>
>>Al
>>
>>
>>-----
>>If you give somebody a match and they can keep warm for a while.
>>If you light them on fire, They will be warm for the rest of their life.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Well everyone check this out on the good ole classifieds. http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=350490

I was floored to read when he states "1.1 Mexican West Coast Rattlesnakes
Captive bred. Approximately 10-12" in length. The female is gorgeous. The male had a bad shed and I don't have time nor want to risk a hand by working with him. $300 pair OBO "

Are you kidding me! I mean is it that hard to stick it in a deli cup with a wet paper towel or some moss and let it come off?!! Why would you even keep hot snakes if you were not prepared to work with it hands on if the issues came about. And about not having enough time?? It takes a whole 6-12 hrs of soaking for it to come off....sheesh thats hard.

Good Stuff Rob! Conservation; that's another point that we need to keep in mind. For many of the common species people keep there is only ONE GOOD REASON to by an import; if you need some fresh DNA introduced into your breeding stock. That said, with so many of them being bred in captivity, no reason to further deplete wild populations. As for inbreeding, look what the AKC (American Kennel Club) had done to most of the "recognized breeds" of dogs. They've inbred them so much that many negative traits are being expressed. The same will happen with all of the various morphs being produced by retile breeders. Can you imagine paying 15K-40K for a single Ball python? I saw some a Daytona that were priced in that range! Holw Cow, there are REAL SUCKERS out there for sure!

Al
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If you give somebody a match and they can keep warm for a while.
If you light them on fire, They will be warm for the rest of their life.

how about the albino burm x rock for 100k...LOL..i guess people can ask whatever they want for a snake.
And the ball market is stupid..anything that looks a little better than normal gets a morph label.
I dont think there is any better looking snake than this one

This is the US, and the US is a capitalist market. We, as a country, are a bunch of greedy bastards! No doubt about it. While there are obviously many negative aspects of this, I don't believe that we (as in me, you, or whoever) have the right to tell someone how much he/she should ask for an animal. I remember when I had up some pre-order ads for baby boomslangs I was waiting to hatch, and was going to ask $150 for. Some idiot e-mailed me asking how I could be so stupid for selling them that expensively when "I can get adults for $70 max." I just kinda laughed. Obviously, it is my decision and my decision only to price an animal whatever I wish it to be, and it'll be the potential buyer's decision to take it or leave it. Agreed, there are numerous ads out there for some, IMHO, crazily overpriced animals...and since people are mentioning examples, the one with all the amazingly expensive elapids is what instantaneously pops to mind. But, it is his choice to price his animals that way, and it's my choice not to buy them.

Then again, there's always that little ditty that dances around in my head about just how cheaply do I want to price a snake that someone could take home and kill themselves with? I've seen people selling black-necked spitting cobras, easily the largest, and probably the most dangerous spitting cobra on the planet, for $30 each as babies. I can't even fathom the logic there. Of course it is a supply vs. demand issue, just as it always is, but still, pricing highly dangerous snakes for pennies makes me cringe.

Another thing that really irks me about the herp market, and something directly related to what Rob mentioned, is how flat out CHEAP herpers can be! Give me a break. I went back and forth through e-mail not two days ago with a gentleman interested in a young argus monitor of mine. The guy kept at it to get me down to the absolute lowest I would go, then when I mistakenly told him one price for shipping and it turned out to be a whole $10 higher (in real life, nothing extra tacked on) he decided he didn't want her unless he could get her for the original shipped price. Then he did, but would split the extra and pay another $5. Hah, what a joke. I finally just told him she was no longer for sale. It really does pain me to give a little and try to cut someone a break, only to have them turn around and try to dig in even more.

Now I'll easily admit that I've sometimes been frugal about buying animals, but that was only when there were a large number available and I could easily do that. Most of the time, if I see something I want, I buy it. I don't try to get the person to come down, and even volunteer to pay extra for certain things - like volunteering to cover their PayPal expense if I insist on paying in that manner, etc.

But anyway, we do have to be careful when we go on these little rants, because you can't tell people how to price their goods. That's called price fixing, and as the major cd companies figured out not long ago, it is illegal, and can get costly in the end.

Now that I've said my peace, I can say with confidence that I would pay a PREMIUM for any boomslangs anyone could offer heh
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Personally,

I think hots should be expensive, really expensive, to prevent the poorly thought out impulse buys that pervade our hobby.

The last show that I went to I saw a child, and I kid you not he was no more than 7 years of age (!!!), carrying a rattler in a deli cup out of the show with his mom.

I'm not anti-hots by any stretch, in fact I would most certainly own hots if they were legal where I live, but this new legislative mess that is developing is partially our fault if we let any dope with $25 in their pocket buy a lethal animal.

Coincidentally, leaving the very same show a friend of mine recalled an incident 3 years prior where a guy who had just bought a black mamba DROPPED the deli cup in the parking lot. The mamba disappeared into the woods behind a residential neighborhood.

We gotta be able to do better. So I say in order for us to have any hope of keeping the venomous hobby alive: $500 minimum on any venomous snake and there should be a waiting period, just like buying a firearm.

But hey that's just my opinion.
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

Wouldn't it be easier to have a license/permit system? It stops the impulse buyer and lets the state know who's got what and where and SAFLEY.

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

It has nothing to do we the price of which the animal sells at, IT has to do with people who will just sell to anyone. If I have a litter of Death Adders and I wish to blow them out at $20 appiece,way below market value, than I can. Now I will screen and make potential buyers give me references if I do not know them or even have heard of them. If dealers just take the time to talk to potential buyers and find out if they are serious or just an impulse buyer, than many problems can be avoided. But then there is the main problem, most of them only care about the $$$$$$. Not all of them are this way, I know about 5 or 6 who are great and do not stoop to that level. No we do not need a $500 minimum order on a snake, we need dealers to police the people who wish to purchase from them.

although i've never posted on the venomous boards, i do read them a lot and try and keep myself, as a fellow herper, informed on all things, as much as i can. although i've never owned a hot snake, i've considered it many times, due to how inexpensive some can be at times. as someone ahead of me pointed out, a spitting cobra is awfully tempting at 30 bucks. but being responsible, i know that it is far out of my league as of now. even if all hot dealers raised prices to a 500 dollar minimum, there will still be a jackass with 500 dollars and no common sense, and he will buy his own death. at the same time, with this becoming an ever growing hobby, something does need to be done in order to keep it in check. although i want as little to do with government sanctions over what i can and can't do as possible, if there were a nationwide licensing system, i would very much support it. make it like getting a drivers license, as a car can kill just as easily as a snake(even more so really). i hope most of what i said makes sense and i don't seem like a complete idiot.....

just my two cents.....thanks!

Everyone knows that reptile pricing is subjective and is subject to changes in availibility, and prices can reflect issues concerning small clutch size, ease in handling and reproduction and getting babies started, but some of the prices I've seen of late are insane. The KCRD was asking $250 for Trans Pecos copperheads, then dropped that to $200 (if memory serves me). Those snakes really aren't worth more than $100, and that would be for a nice animal. The Trans Pecos copperhead being sold by WildRyno is exactly what I'm talking about. Its a really nice animal at a fair market price ($75). The point is that there are high prices and low prices, but the true worth of the animal usually falls somewhere in the middle.

I have spent decent money on an animal even when I knew that I was being ripped, but if you just HAVE TO HAVE IT, then it can be justified. That, however, doesn't mean that that price is what the animal is worth, it just reflects my desire to have it before someone buys it ahead of me.

I could go on all day about pricing, but I've said enough. Alex

Call it what you may, I had 4 of these going into the fall ranging from babies to sub-adults. As of last week I sold my last one for $245 shipped. You may think my prices are insaine but they are what they are and as of now they are sold.

Some people are better at marketing their animals than others, you might sell a snake for $75 when I can get $200 for it. If the price is too high buy from someone else or shoot me an offer the worst thing I can say is no.

Hey Al, when I first read your initial post I was thinking you were hinting at how incredibly cheap you can get a hot for and not the other way around (which I soon found out after reading more).

Without putting too much thought into it I'd like to see hot's at a much more premium price to avoid the ever dangerous $9 iguana effect. If backyard breeders can't sell any babies they'll stop breeding. (Ideally, I know...) If they were hard to afford, only the more commited will seek them.

Higher prices would obviously demand more wild-caughts, again, a problem. Where're pretty good at regulating our small group through discussion, but it's a vast minority. Consider the thousands that walked through Daytona versus the few you see in this forum.

What do you take on my 3am opinion?

Ian