Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Who has any pure LA Pines?

oh,a few of us do.
Shannon

but who has a pair or 2 for sale???

Since we are talking about one of the, if not THE rarest snake in North America it is a good bet you can not just look for one on the classifieds. The eggs they lay are enormous and clutches are not as large as other Pits. Your best bet is to contact a breeder now to be on the list for next year, or even the year after. Try looking for Terry Vandeventer, Dave Boyle, or maybe even Shannon Brown? Tom Stevens

With them being so rare, how can anyone be sure they have pure specimens? Has anyone wild collected these? Is that even legal? I think they are awesome, just trying to learn more about them.

With them being so rare, how can anyone be sure they have pure specimens? Has anyone wild collected these? Is that even legal? I think they are awesome, just trying to learn more about them.

Well it's my bet you'll find many specimens collected were found by accident, and those who spent years looking for them never found any. Now I am no expert, but I am friends with someone who spent many years looking for them, and for the also elusive Black Pines, another very hard snake to find in the wild. Ask yourself this...how many times have you seen these snakes for sale? There's not many people who have them and those who do take it very seriously. I don't know if it is legal to collect them, but it doesn't matter because chances are you will never find one. I know there's some in the San Antonio Zoo but I am not sure if they produce or sell offspring. I also know there was a tragedy fairly recently where someones snake room was broken into and what was probably the largest group of these animals were stolen or simply released by some idiots.... Again, the few who do have them will most likely be choosey about who they sell too, as purity is everything with this snake. If you think about it it's hard to take on the responsibility of working with these, as they're best left to someone with a lot of experience....and a solid reputation. If there's any doubt to the breeders rep people may not believe that persons snakes are 100% pure.This is similar to the Indigo, in the sense that people working with them take them very seriously....and it is a big commitment from the buyer to the seller that they will do the right thing... I can see why someone would think the LA Pines are awesome, the size and look are impressive, but have you considered or do you work with any other Pits? Tom Stevens

We currently work with Bulls, Gophers, and Pines. The collections consists of:
1.1 Yellow Locale Bulls from Jason Nelson
1.1 Het Albino and Whitesite Bulls from Jason
1.0 Albino Whiteside Bull from Jason
1.2 Tri-Color Local Bulls from Craig Trumbower
1.2 Hypo Bulls
1.1 Albino Bulls from Suffolk Herp
0.1 West Texas Locale Bull from Rick Krumrine
1.0 Ghost Whiteside
0.1 Bell Whiteside (Sibling to the Ghost Whiteside)
1.1 Het Pied Black Pines from Rick Krumrine
1.1 Baha Cape Gophers
1.1 San Diego Gophers Het Albino, male Het Stripe as well.

That's a nice list of snakes. Have you been producing Pits for a while? What is your and your businesses name? I live in Texas so I can't work with LA Pines any which way, I am uncertain if it is restricted in any other states. May I ask who had the one at the show you saw? I have to ad something....and it is a touchy subject. But apparently someone I know had the means to do some DNA research on these animals. Even a shed skin would have been helpful but according to the source the only person who was willing to cooperate was someone whose animals were in question above all others..... I guess it would be interesting to know if most of the stock available came from a single pair of snakes or if a few people are lucky enough to have thier own bloodlines. I don't torture myself looking into them cause I can't have them anyway. ttyl Tom Stevens

This should be our first year producing. I am going to try to produce some Ghost Whitesides from my one pair of siblings, Pied Black Pines, and if I can find an adult male West Texas local that is as red as our female, I will try to produce those as well. It all really depends on the sizes by the time I am ready to cool them down. If I feel the females are still too small, I will wait another year. My real name is Adam Wolford, and we do business as Mid-Atlantic Herpetoculture. I work some of the smaller shows in the Maryland area. I'm no huge breeder or anything We have worked with RTB's, Crested and Leopard Geckos and I have a soft spot for Amazon Tree Boas, but we caught the Pit bug after my girlfriend bought our first Hypo Bull at a show and we have been piling together a collection ever since.

The Good thing is I live in PA now, so I Can have pretty much anything.

The snake I saw at that show was at the Dayton Show in august, I don't remember who had it.

This is a Rapids Parish hatchling from last year. This snake is now pushing 3.5 ft, they are some of the most voraciuos eating Pituophis I ever kept.

Let me further respond in this portion of the thread since the pic is a reference. I was walking through a show not long ago and saw a pine in a deli cup labelled "Loiusiana Pine" with a $475 price tag, however the snake in the cup didn't look any different from a Northern. Now, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't a pure pine. It just got me thinking about the purity. Maybe this snake was 50/50. I am worried about buying a pair and producing off looking babies they are obviously not LA Pines. Maybe I could still sell them as such, but I do have a conscience.

Collecting in Louisiana is still legal, though you must have a Louisiana State fishing license to do so.
This should be changing in the near future, as application has already been submitted to grant P. m ruthveni federal protection under the USF&W Endangered Species Act of 1973, though initial application was submitted in 2001. You may review the continuing application at the following URL:

http://www.fws.gov/southeast/es/pdf/lps.pdf

The Great Republic of Texas offers state level protection against the unauthorized collection of P. m ruthveni, but this does little to protect vital habitat, the loss of which has been the primary reason of both decline and complete extirpation of the species.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Just got off the phone with Jeff Bounty, of the Louisiana Department of wildlife and Fisheries, he informed me that an unlimited number of wild P. m ruthveni may be collected, with a basic state fishing permit.
He also informed me of a ruthveni working group, involving over thirty folks from various government organizations, timber industries and concerned biologists working to develop state conservation measures to offset the need for Federally mandated protection and it sounds as though they are having a good deal of success to this regard.
Keep in mind, even if you head down to the Cajun State, in search of ruthveni, you will be VERY lucky to find one. However, should you hit the jackpot and actually find a ruthveni; it may be well vested time for you to stop by a local casino and play some slots or purchase some lotto tickets!

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Awesome, thanks alot for your effort in getting that info out! Good to hear that people are working to conserve them.

Most of the LA pines that I have heard of lately were plowed up, owing to their largely fossorial life style. A few were found above ground. In my 40 years of collecting in LA I have never found one, except for a transmitter carrier in Bienville Parish. A friend of mine found a road kill in Rapides parish near the Natchitoches parish line. Traps set in Vernon and Natchitoches parishes for a number of years did not yield a single pine snake, even though they were in excellent habitat. I believe that most of the remaining LA pines are now in the Bienville parish area. I was at a Reptile and Amphibian Task Force meeting a couple of years ago when placing them on the state endangered list was voted down. Since then LA has enacted a very strict protection of the box turtle. Of course this doesn't stop them from being smashed in great numbers by motor vehicles, just from being bred by interested herpeteculturists.
Jim McLean

Hello Jim,

Jeff told me of eight areas within LA harboring high densities of the P. m ruthveni, though it is still difficult to find them in these areas, due to their fossorial nature.
I was also told that the state voted against the protective measures regarding P. m ruthveni, as there was insufficient data indicating the species is actually endangered and not merely difficult to find, much like L. m alterna were many years ago, along with the fact the state endorses the efforts of the P. m ruthveni working group, which had a great deal of input regarding not providing state level protective sanctions upon the species.
Jim, did you ever partake in John's telemetry studies, regarding P. m ruthveni?

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947